22 rifle accuracy in the 1930 s

[johnl]

I imagine the quality of modern ammo would do wonders in those older rifles compared to the ammo of the period.

[Woody]

You may be right about that. My 1937 vintage Winchester 52 is as accurate as any .22 rifle I have or ever have had.

Woody

[CptCurl]

Don't ever think they couldn't make an accurate rifle or a match barrel back then. Those people knew what they were doing.

I have an un-altered, garden variety Winchester High Wall Musket. It would have been made approximately 1918 to 1920 or so. It has a pristine, original bore. Here's what it did last February on a dead calm day for the 2020 Frostbite 200yd Postal match. This is a quote of my post on Feb. 5, 2020. Three consecutive ten-shot groups at 200 yards:

I made it out to the range this morning. When I arrived it was raining steadily, but the wind was calm.

My setup was the same I have been pounding: my Winchester High Wall Winder Musket with aperture sights.





I ended up shooting a box of RWS R50 for 5 targets. Conditions were as good as I could ask, except for the rain.

My first target produced a pleasing, but wet group.





At its widest point the group measures 3.698"



My second target was not quite as good, but it was still below 4 inches.





Across its widest shots this group measures 3.955". Again, this was RWS R50, though I didn't mark it on this target.

You might notice that the rain had just about quit at this point. Trouble was, the breeze was getting started with the change of weather.



My third target continued my run of sub-4" groups.





This group is 3.810" as indicated.



Unfortunately, that was the end of it. The rain had stopped, the sky had become brighter, and I now had a left-to-right cross wind. My next two targets went to the wood stove to be burned.

After waiting a short while I thought the wind had died. I set out to hang a target to try some Eley Tenex. By the time I got half-way downrange the wind was picking back up. I turned around and decided my day was through.

All-in-all it was a good day at the range.





Curl

This is a rifle originally designed and manufactured as a military trainer, not a match rifle. Mine is not a military rifle. It was sold on the commercial market, as many were.

Oh, and by the way, they knew how to make good ammo back then too.

Who knows what a Winchester 52 is capable of? The 52 is not allowed in our Frostbite Postal matches.

Those old rifles are great!

Curly

[SSShooter]

I have a No.3 Ballard that was given to my father by a man that my grandfather did carpentry for. He gave my father all his guns in 1952. He had sent the Ballard to Winchester in 1930 and had them install a Model 52 barrel and shot it in competition in the 30’s & 40’s, so I am told. The configuration of the rifle is typical prone/position rifle of the ‘30’s and 40’s and has a Lyman 5A scope on it. I am now the caretaker of the rifle. Luckily it was very well cared for and will shoot inside 4” at 200 yds.

That's interesting. I purchased a Ballard #2 (if memory serves) from Steve Garbe at the Wyoming Armory back in 2005 (give or take a year). Steve did not know the history of the rifle, but sounds like it could have been similar to the one your father owned. It has a Model 52 barrel and wore Freeland wood & adjustable butt-plate. It is now owned by Dave Wiese, who tells me it was speed-locked and today wears proper wood (from Mike Webster, if I recall correctly) for 22BPCR. It was an excellent shooter and Dave reports it is still one of his most accurate rifles.

If the shooters of the 1930s were any better than the shooters of today their records would still stand. Can't think of a single record in the shooting sports that's anywhere near that old.

[Glen Ring]

True Michael. I started with a bow and rifle at a VERY early age. In the 60's and even in the early 70's we had rifles in our trucks at school. My Grandson started at 9 I think, shooting competitively at tornado alley.
I was primarily a Squirrel and Rabbit hunter and we shot for the eye on both critters.

It's like comparing Bob Cousey to Kobe Bryant ...both were good in their times...and the disciplines were different.

I think it's very cool to shoot a 100 year old Winchester...we have one and it's a very good shooter.

[John Bly]

I shoot an original 22 long rifle barrel on an 1882 Maynard. It is almost as pristine as the day it was made, probably in the 1890's. I won the AAA class in 22 BPCR at Raton in 2014 with it. It was no doubt the oldest original barrel shot in the match. I was shooting it one day with my son and he asked me
"How did they make barrels that good back then?" I told him that barrel making made great strides in the late 1800's and that craftmanship was a source of pride among many gun makers.

[jackrabbit]

If the shooters of the 1930s were any better than the shooters of today their records would still stand. Can't think of a single record in the shooting sports that's anywhere near that old.

Not true. Actually many of the records still stand. The problem is The ASSRA and ISSA changed the rules making it easier to shoot better scores. Specifically, allowing the shooter to return to the sighter target in the middle of a string of fire and allowing complete misses of the target to not be counted. What I mean is you can keep shooting at the target until you have the correct number of record shots regardless of how many times you miss. The other thing to keep in mind is many of these old time matches did not use sighter targets. You simply stepped to the line and fired your record shots. As you can see we are not comparing apples to apples. Modern shooters like to think they have broken many of the old records, but they are not following the same rules.

This very subject is where the Wyoming Schuetzen Union sprouted from. Besides encouraging the use of period equipment, the purpose was to remember the old shooters and their scores and be able to compare your shooting today with that of past times. We are working on bringing more life to the WSU and trying to put a register together of the old records, as well as new ones so shooters can compare themselves with the old timers. WSU rules are used at the Butte Rifle club for their famous schuetzen matches, at the Bitterroot Schuetzen Society in Hamilton, here in Carpenter at Smithmoor, and several other places. It is not dead, just not publisized on the internet as much as it needs.

By the way, in case anybody is wondering, there were some terrific shooters in the old days. I personally believe there are only a handful of shooters today that could even come close to some of the shooting of the past. Don't believe me? Go ahead and post a ring target or Standard American and try for yourself. 2301 is the accepted 100 shot, 200 yard record by Hudson on the ring target. Breaking 230 on a 10 shot ring target is really an accomplishment. Shooting into the 90's on the Standard American is dang tough, let alone cleaning it with a 100. 100 shot, 200 yard scores on the Standard American were often seen in the high 900's. Bench scores are the same way. In case you were wondering, they were not using extremely heavy rifles with fancy front rests, 36 power Leupolds and huge bench style forends. Go ahead and try it with cast bullets and similiar equipment to what they used and you will find ol' Roland's group damn hard to beat.
For what it's worth,
Cody

[Glen Ring]

I agree with Smith..I think the shooters back then were really good shooters.
I like to think there were a lot of gentlemen on the line back then, dressed well for a public outing and shooting the same rifles they shot game with.
1930's, all gentlemen being nice to one another with no drama. That's the kind of meet that built modern competition into what it is today.
Shooting a hand fitted Smith and Wesson revolver is nice, I've had several and loved them, but the newer CNC made ones I think are more accurate.
I have no point of reference comparing a really old 22 rifle to a modern one, but the writings from the old books reflected that there were some well made 22 rifles back in the old days and fellows that could shoot them very well.

[jackrabbit]

I have an original Winchester highwall 22 schuetzen model made in the 1910's I believe. I had not shot it for groups for some time and thought I would try some last week at 100 yards. I mostly use the rifle for 50 ft indoor matches and did not have sights on it to easily shoot at further distances. After adding an MVA Schuetzen Soule, I headed to the range and tried it out. With RWS Target 10 shots went into about 2 1/4" inches. Not too bad, I thought. I tried some Lapua Midas next. The first 5 shots went into 3/8 of an inch! Wow! The ten shot group measured about 7/8". The rifles in our group of shooters with premium modern barrels cannot do any better. Winchester barrels intended for target rifles from that era clearly have nothing to be ashamed of and will shoot with the best of modern barrels. There was an article a few issues back in the BPCR News about Winchester barrels. It outlines the manufacturing process and shows that they were much better than many of todays shooters think they were. You might look for it if you are interested.
Cody

[22Ballard]

Glenn, the .22 Ballard you were talking about was a high quality build. It has a Winchester Model 52 barrel, eith a perfect bore, that will shoot sub-MOA easily to 100 yds as well as 200 yds, if conditions cooperate. It is speed-lucked, has adjustable trigger with an over-travel adjustment. It has the smoothest trigger that I’ve ever felt. There is also a spring loaded gizmo that holds the lever in a 90 degree location when the lever is dropped. The workmanship is very high quality. Dave Crossno told me that whoever built the gun is/was a master gunsmith. Since I bought the rifle I had it re-stocked by Dave. I’ve been doing ammo testing with it and will be shooting it in the up-coming season. If only these old rifles could talk. I should also say I agree with Cody, 100% on these Winchester barrels since I have another Winchester-barreled Ballard and it’s a tack driver too.

[Glen Ring]

What is speed lucked?

[22Ballard]

The cock notch is relocated to move the hammer forward, shorten up the throw of the hammer, speed up the lock time, gun goes bang faster. Think of shooting your rifle off the half-cock notch.

[SSShooter]

Pope, Hudson, Dorrler and several others were terrific off-hand shooters and their records that still stand will likely never be bettered as very few folks shoot those disciplines these days. Not sure how much shooting Pope & Dorrler were doing in the '30's, but think Hudson died in 1920 or there abouts. Times change and so do the rules/disciplines. Luddites of the world arise. BP forever. Will be interesting to see where we are BPCR/BPTR-wise in 10yr or 20yr.

[bruce m]

glenn,
the shooting world has certainly changed.
very few people are now wanting to shoot offhand.
everything the tactical crowd do is off a rest.
modern so called hunting rifles are basically target rifles designed to be shot from a rest.
snap shooting running targets with them is all but impossible.
beginners buy this stuff because they are told it is what they need by people who would not know anyway and just want a fast buck.
really good shooting in any discipline takes time and effort, but people are now educated to think you can buy it and have it now.
and offhand is the hardest and longest to learn.
black powder shooting itself took a turn for the worse when repeaters took over the military.
the military wanted string shooting, and they got string shooting.
prior to that everyone took their turn for their next shot, read the wind, and fired.
no shot chasing there.
and they had no sighters.
try and suggest going back to that today and watch the steam come out of some ears.
bruce.

[Glen Ring]

True Bruce
I have shot just about everything and THE hardest thing I ever did was shoot High power silhouette..all 40 shots standing. Then Small bore Silhouette..all 40 shots standing.
I was reading books by the past great shooters today. They advocated learning to shoot off a bench, then prone, sitting, kneeling and standing to be an all around rifleman. Most of those gentlemen come from a past of war and hunting. My favorite as a kid hunting was the sitting position.

Our Grandson started out with a pellet pistol, then pellet rifle, then 22 rifle, bows, blowguns, slingshots.... he's warming up to a shotgun and maybe this year we'll start shooting moving targets. I hope he'll be an all around good shot like those from the past were.