7 Degree Leade?

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Distant Thunder
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Location: NE Wisconsin

Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by Distant Thunder » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:12 am

Kurt,

I think most of us have one rifle in the safe that won't play nice at times, I know I have one such rifle. That one likes what it likes and nothing else so don't even ask! It keeps it interesting.

I'm looking forward to seeing you and everyone else in just over two weeks! I'm itching to do some real shooting. I plan on shooting my lucky rifle, my .45-70 Hepburn, because I'll need a little help for this first match of the year. I hope it warms up a little! Been pretty cold and wet here for the past two weeks.

I'll see you at Lodi!
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder

A new age of tyranny dawns in the United States! If anyone is brave enough to say so they're destroyed by the BIG Tech branch of the Federal Government for spreading lies! "Reeducation" camps to follow!

semtav
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by semtav » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:37 am

Kurt wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:02 am
Deep seated PP bullet in a chamber with the 45º transition.


IMG_0645.JPG


Deep seated bullet in a 5º transition.
(Look close in the center)

IMG_0841 (2).jpg

I don't know Kurt,
That first picture begs the question, is that normal or an anomaly ? Was that patched to groove or bore? Was that hard or soft lead?
Was the case the proper length or way too short? Given how deep I seat my PP bullets and what I am seeing at the target with hard alloys, I just can't believe that is a normal occurance if everything is right in the load.

MikeT
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Location: Saint Cloud, MN

Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by MikeT » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:11 am

TexasMac,

Yes, your sketch is the way my chamber looks. There is a definite step [not very high] but easily noticeable
when viewed from the breech.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

mdeland
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by mdeland » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:53 am

I'm no math wiz but I believe the length of the angle can be calculated to tell what actual degree one has per side, knowing the OD at the end of the chamber neck and the bore diameter.
I can see this when using the compound protractor on the lathe and then cutting an angle and noting how long it is.

Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:43 pm

[quote=TexasMac post_id=327250 time=1618460851 user_id=8236]

But very few if any shooters could maintain a perfect fit of the case length to the transition step. And as you know, all the brass suppliers produce brass with a safety margin to fit chambers of various tolerances and to help minimize high pressures, therefore the brass is typically 0.010” to 0.015” shorter than SAAMI or even custom chambers. Hence all chambers are cut with an angular transition step to help ease the bullet into the throat.

Wayne
[/quote]

Wayne, May I introduce you to the Shiloh Sharps standard 45 2-7/8ths chamber, it is 2.880 long with its standard .050 leade. I use Norma brass that after full length sizing can be as long as 2.910. I use a custom Lee trimming gauge that cuts my brass to 2.881. I then fireform the brass. It fits perfectly and no rings of lead or paper for that matter. It never is sized again, yet they do get a mild annealing after each firing.

It yields world Record Groups in the 2008 5@200 match. It beat everyone including all the greasers that year with a shorten .446 diameter PP version of the money bullet, my design just shorter and fatter than Dan T’s original size of .444. Group was 1.336 inches 5 Shots on demand in front of witnesses. I also won a 5@200 with my Mono-groove bullet in 2006, with the same exact rifle and barrel

In moderate conditions it shoots extremely well, has taken 2nd Place in a NRA Midrange regional at Byers Colorado. It was used with my .446 545 gr money of my design, weight is 538 grs with 15-1 alloy to place 3rd overall at Byers in 2016 to take 3rd overall in that regional. Jim Terry was first, (I spotted.) and Zack Taylor was 2nd. I shot a crossfire at 600 yards that put me second in the midrange, it was a 10 btw. Jack Odor won the midrange by 11 points. Zack Taylor bless him bested me by 4 points in the overall aggregate. The fact remains that I beat Zack in the midrange, and anytime you can do that, let’s just say your shit is working. Still a bronze with pp isn’t nothing to be ashamed of in a NRA Regional. Btw in that match we shot the new 500 yard target, I set a new open National record that day with that pp bullet and a standard Shiloh Chamber. 94-5X. My last 4 shots were on the 3 inch marker disk. I shot the pin out once. You can ask Don McDowell about it he was pulling my target. I had a laugh as I watched the disk slide of the target after my first X was marked for my second X.

The past 2 years I have used a Paul Jones .445 Money built specifically for my 25# Dora. It shoots well but not to my best at Creedmoor. It did in 2018 give me a Mid-Range Scope championship. Besting everyone at 600 yards, even Dave Gullo. Who went on to win the match.

Standard Shiloh Chamber, no 7° leade. Standard bore ride Paper Patch bullets.

There is a lot of talk from shooters about the wonders of a 7°leade.

I have a lot of medals that Say it isn’t necessary. Shot with greasers and PP out of the same chamber.
2006 Creedmoor Nationals with a Shortened NASA mono-groove bullet. Standard Shiloh Chamber shot 6 individual Golds in the match. 800-900-1000 2 days in a row. Finished in the top 10 overall also.


Kenny
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Kurt
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by Kurt » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:17 pm

semtav wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:37 am
Kurt wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:02 am
Deep seated PP bullet in a chamber with the 45º transition.


IMG_0645.JPG


Deep seated bullet in a 5º transition.
(Look close in the center)

IMG_0841 (2).jpg

I don't know Kurt,
That first picture begs the question, is that normal or an anomaly ? Was that patched to groove or bore? Was that hard or soft lead?
Was the case the proper length or way too short? Given how deep I seat my PP bullets and what I am seeing at the target with hard alloys, I just can't believe that is a normal occurance if everything is right in the load.
Bryan those were shot seeing what the effect a short case does in a 45º transition and both bullets were 1/16 alloy because that is what I use if I don't use a mix of 1/18 with the use of a one pound roll of no lead solder. I don't go softer or harder for shooting matches.

Those two bullets were shot with the same powder load in two .45-2.4 rifles, one with the Shiloh that has the standard chamber with the 45º transition and the other was shot with the CPA .45-2.4 with the 5º transition with the short case.
I have also shot .45-70 loads in the .45º transitions and 5º using both rifles and the 5º looked just like the undamaged bullet and the 45º pulled fins and showed signs of the paper patch being pulled back with deep wrinkles on the shank, but again that was shooting a PP .45-70 round in the .45-90 chamber.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill

semtav
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by semtav » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm

I was just thinking the other day, the one good thing about a 7 deg or shallower chamber, is the ability to use shorter shells, --- If you were "surrounded " !!!! :lol:

Kurt
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Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by Kurt » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:38 pm

There is also the problem when you have a .45-2.6 and a .44-2.6 when you don't mark the ammo box and have a hard time hitting the 200 yd bowling pin. :lol: :lol:
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill

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alfajim
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by alfajim » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:52 pm

what effect does the angle of the transition have on the delay of the bullet allowing for it to obdurate sealing it in the grooves? The trapdoor is 45' and requires a lot of swelling of the bullet base to seal in the 3 land/grooves.

Jim O

bruce m
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by bruce m » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:12 am

is the trapdoor 45 degrees?
i don't think so unless it is a modern non saami edition.
12ish degrees might be more likely?
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

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alfajim
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by alfajim » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:22 am

Bruce
The chamber print in Spence's trapdoor book shows a 45' by .075" transition. It;s from the armory print.

Jim O

bruce m
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by bruce m » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:44 am

interesting.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

bruce m
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by bruce m » Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:26 am

jim,
could you elaborate on that.
i think it means that the transition is 45 degrees, by 0.075 long parallel to the axis of the bore.
if it is 45 degrees the measurement would be about the thickness of a case neck wall plus a little bit.
more like maybe 0.013 to 0.015"
either i have a misunderstanding or the drawing might be wrong.
who can do trigonometry?
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

Griff
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by Griff » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:32 pm

My question sparked a lively and informative conversation (although it is being rivaled by the one about barrel torque). Thanks, gents!

Griff
Dangerous Freedom

bruce m
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by bruce m » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:08 pm

alfajim wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:22 am
Bruce
The chamber print in Spence's trapdoor book shows a 45' by .075" transition. It;s from the armory print.

Jim O
the more i think about this, the more i think 45 degrees is incorrect in spence's book.
the numbers as presented do not add up.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

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