7 Degree Leade?

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Griff
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7 Degree Leade?

Post by Griff » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:37 pm

I'm making some final decisions as I spec out a rifle that I have on order. I've decided on .44-77 as the caliber and I'm planning to start with grease-groove bullets (since that's what I'm familiar with), but branch into paper-patch bullets at some point. I have no experience with paper-patch bullets, but I'm looking forward to learning a new skill.

Several authorities have recommended that I ask for the chamber to be cut with a 7 degree leade, which should work with both bullet styles. At this point, that's what I'm planning on, but I thought that I'd see if there is any downside to having a 7 degree leade. I've heard only positive points so far; are there any reasons to avoid a 7 degree leade in the chamber? Any thoughts on this?

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Distant Thunder
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by Distant Thunder » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:32 pm

I would say it very much depends on what you intend to do with the rifle. I wanted to shoot the .44-77 and win matches with it, silhouette, mid range and long range.

I went with Shiloh's standard grease groove chamber and I wouldn't have it any other way.

The only grease bullets I've shot and will ever shoot through this rifles are ones I used for fire forming my cases initially. I'm sure my rifle would shoot grease groove bullets well.

I shoot only paper patch bullets and have had very good results with about a half a dozen different bore diameter and one 2-diameter paper patch bullets. Several different loads with these bullets have been from just over 1 moa to 1 1/2 moa at 220 yards. That is the distance I do my load development at.

So far my rifle, which has a 1 in 17 twist Krieger barrel that was installed and chamber by Shiloh, has been competitive in matches. Last year with Covid-19 cancelling a lot of matches early I was limited in the matches I could shoot. I got my rifle from Shiloh in July and only had 3 months to go to the few matches that were held in my area. I hope this year will be better.

The people I know that have the 7 degree chamber you are considering are very pleased with it. I can not speak to the accuracy they are getting with their rifles.

A year ago when I was considering the different chamber possibilities for my rifle I got a lot of advise to go with the 7 degree chamber. In the end I knew I wanted to have the best chance of success with paper patch bullets and the best chance to win matches with this cartridge and for me that is the standard chamber. It works with both grease groove and paper patch.
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MikeT
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by MikeT » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:48 pm

I have the 7 degree lead in a 40-70SS & my 40-50SBN. They both were delivered to me without the 7 degree lead [standard tight chamber]. When I switched to PP bullets many years ago, I found that many times I had a very thin paper ring left in the chamber.
The brass had shortened over time and now the 45 degree at the end of the chamber was cutting off the paper at the back of the bullet. Except for the paper ring, PP bullets shot very well in that chamber. On occasion, the ring would remain in the chamber and interfere with the patched bullet fit in the bore. So I had Shiloh put the 7 degree lead in my 40-70SS chamber. After that worked out fine, I decided to send my 40-50SBN back to Shiloh to have the 7 degree lead put in that chamber. No more paper rings from shooting PP bullets in those rifles.
Now, I also shoot PP bullets in my 45-70 standard chambered Highwall. I do not get paper rings in that rifle, probably because I make my 45-70 brass from 45-90 brass. That way I can adjust the length of the brass to closely fit the chamber.

Keep on hav'n fun!
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bruce m
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by bruce m » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:55 pm

your 45/70 probably has about a 12 degree transition, which is more forgiving than a 45 degree.
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ian45662
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by ian45662 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:58 pm

This was something I was struggling to decide when I ordered my Shiloh. Mine was ordered in 45-70 but I was going to use it with bore diameter paper patch bullets about 95% of the time. I didn’t want a paper patch chamber but gave the 7degree thing some consideration. After the smoke cleared I decided to go with the standard chamber and I am glad I did. I don’t get paper rings. I do use brass that fits my chamber though so maybe that’s why. Accuracy in this chamber has been terrific.

clearcrickshooter
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by clearcrickshooter » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:23 pm

I liked the 7 degree leade in my Shiloh 110 so well, that I changed my two highwalls to it also. Loads chamber better, less bump up and obturation with the bullet I believe..... and scores went up dramatically. Why, not absolutely sure, but something happened. Clearcreekshooter.

AzTBH
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by AzTBH » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:54 pm

I recently had my Shiloh 1874 re-barreled to a 14-twist in a 40-65 chambering. I mentioned to Kirk, when I dropped off the rifle in Big Timber, that I was shooting paper patch bullets, including dual-diameter. I also noted that although I did experience the paper ring, with the standard chamber, it didn’t seem to have any ill effects. Kirk recommended the 7° lead, for paper patch, so that is what I went with. I haven’t shot the rifle, so I have no experience to share. Below is a photo of the chamber cast poured by Shiloh showing the 7° leade.

60D69070-2CDF-4F92-9B76-0288D73A777A.jpeg
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bobw
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by bobw » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:38 pm

I have 2 shiloh 74 45-70's. The first one a 34" HB Montana Roughrider I bought onsite out of the gun library at Shiloh it had a std chamber I had Kirk correct that before I left with a 7 degree leade. yes there is a fee. The next a 30" hb Montana Roughrider with a std chamber and had them do a 7 degree leade in it as well. If I had ordered them it would have been with an original style chamber. Both guns shoot great neither gun has ever had it's barrel polluted with a grease groove bullet. Paper patch only. I have a b gun in 45-110 and a saddle rifle in 40-90 2 5/8" SBN both have original style chambers that only shoot patch to bore dia bullets. I only shoot greasers in my trapdoor and 86 win. In my book a tight original style chamber is better for patch to bore ppb's any day of the week. Everybody has an opinion that's mine and yes I have used std, std with the 7 and the original style chamber. Actually owned and used all of them not just opinions about things I have no experience with. Bobw
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Don McDowell
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by Don McDowell » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:37 pm

In the 44-77, I like the 7 degree lead.I haven't seen a down side to it, I had one with the standard chamber and one built with the 7 degree lead reamer. I now have a 3rd one with the 7 degree lead but have not fired the rifle a single time yet..
In the 40 and 45's I have in Shiloh's standard chamber I see no need for that. Those shoot bore diameter patched bullets just as well as greasers and dual diameters.
Downside to it? No I don't think so, but there's really no downside to shooting a standard Shiloh chamber either.
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J.B.
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by J.B. » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:43 am

Well both my 44/77's are running Shilohs 7 degree transition and they've worked fine for me with both grooved and paper patch. Both rifles shoot very well and the biggest variable as usual is just me. I'm quite sure a snug , standard configuration Shiloh chamber would shoot just as well when all other loading factors are taken into consideration. Almost all the gg moulds I've had made have most of the projectile well clear of the case and up into the lands. No leading of any consequence and no paper rings with a variety of different brass lengths. It really is a 'Mickey Mouse' cartridge by the way. I would have ordered it regardless of the transition angle and I'm quite sure it would have been perfect either way. Other than setting yourself up with brass, I'm sure you'll be well pleased with either. hth.

J.B.

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ian45662
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by ian45662 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:43 am

Does this 7 degree lead go right into the rifling? The standard Shiloh has the 45 transition of course then goes into a 2-30 lead into the rifling.

bobw
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by bobw » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:12 am

Look at the picture Ross posted, that answers your question. bobw
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by Kurt » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:16 am

Here are a couple more from 4º too 7º plus an original 3º
IMG_2502.JPG
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ian45662
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by ian45662 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:24 am

bobw wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:12 am
Look at the picture Ross posted, that answers your question. bobw
Looking at it on my phone it looks like it goes from the case mouth right into the rifling which is exactly how my highwall and cpa is set up but they have a 12-30 degree lead.

TexasMac
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Re: 7 Degree Leade?

Post by TexasMac » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:30 am

Hey guys,

So as not to confuse those reading this, let’s be clear on the change discussed here and the definition of leade vs. transition step. This is important for those with rifles that have some freebore. The leade and transition step can be one in the same if the throat does not have any freebore. But in a rifle with some, even minimal, freebore, the 1st diameter dimension change in front of the chamber neck is the transition step. This is the step this thread is referring to. I.e., changing the angle of the transition step from the typical 45 degrees to 7 degrees. Most of the comments so far have incorrectly or "loosely" referred to the suggested change as a 7 degree leade. It’s correctly called a 7-degree transition or transition step.

So let’s discuss making the same change in rifles with freebore. I’ll use a couple of examples to help make by point followered by a rifle with no freebore.
1) The Browning .40-65 has a 12.5 degree transition step, a rather long 0.200” of freebore and then a 1.5 degree leade. To make the rifle “friendlier” when using paper patched bullets means changing the transition step from 12.5 degrees to the suggested 7 degrees. The leade would remain at the same 1.5 degrees.
2) My Shiloh Sharps .40-65 has a 45 degree transition step, a very shot 0.025” freebore, than a 2.5 degree leade. Since the freebore is very short, changing the angle of the transition step to 7 degrees would eliminate the freebore and the existing 2.5 degree leade. The result would be one long 7 degree step.
3) The Browning .45-70 has no freebore. Essentially the 12.5 degree transition step and free bore are one in the same. Therefore cutting (lengthening) the transition step/leade to 7 degrees would result in one long 7 degree step.

Wayne
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