barrel torque direction

Talk with other Shiloh Sharps shooters.

Moderators: Kirk, Lucinda

bruce m
Posts: 3350
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:25 am
Location: australia

Re: barrel torque direction

Post by bruce m »

ian could that be due to torque, or a difference in hold?
either way barrel time is our enemy, and consistency must be maintained.
i personally find a relatively loose grip of the pistol grip is easier to be consistent with on the trigger, and in hold.
and certainly using the trigger hand to pull the stock back into the shoulder is bad news.
it is so easy to get to steering the rifle rather than using a natural point of aim.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus
axman
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:14 pm

Re: barrel torque direction

Post by axman »

When I shot my brothers 8 bore Greener single rifle left handed it always pushed the stock into my face. He shot it right handed and it pushed away from his cheek.
It had clockwise rifling.
flatsguide
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:44 pm

Re: barrel torque direction

Post by flatsguide »

For a RHT If you treat the rifling like a screw, which it is, then unwind it you end up with an inclined plane that is an angle equal to the pitch, rifling. Lay that plane down, and facing it with the start of the angle on your left, and the plane of that angle going away from you to the right, a right hand twist unfolded. Shoot at that plane and when the bullet impacts the plane it will deflect to the right and the plane will be displaced to the left, the reaction. The bullet does not want to turn,inertia. It reacts and spins to the right, it is reacting off of the rifling. The rifling reacts by rotating the rifle counterclockwise. Any part of the rifle below the bore axis will rotate towards the right and above the bore axis to the left, more or less.
At least that’s the way I understand it.
Cheers Richard
User avatar
alfajim
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:16 pm

Re: barrel torque direction

Post by alfajim »

flatsguide wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:31 pm For a RHT If you treat the rifling like a screw, which it is, then unwind it you end up with an inclined plane that is an angle equal to the pitch, rifling. Lay that plane down, and facing it with the start of the angle on your left, and the plane of that angle going away from you to the right, a right hand twist unfolded. Shoot at that plane and when the bullet impacts the plane it will deflect to the right and the plane will be displaced to the left, the reaction. The bullet does not want to turn,inertia. It reacts and spins to the right, it is reacting off of the rifling. The rifling reacts by rotating the rifle counterclockwise. Any part of the rifle below the bore axis will rotate towards the right and above the bore axis to the left, more or less.
At least that’s the way I understand it.
Cheers Richard
Richard, Newtons third law for every action there is an opposet and equal reaction.
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: barrel torque direction

Post by mdeland »

Nah, it torques the same direction as the twist ! The idea that the bullet wants to keep going straight ahead is correct but the pressure and friction load is on the left side of right hand rifling forcing it to the right. The barrel having far greater mass than the bullet is not unwinding from the lessor bullet mass which would be the case if Newtons 3rd law actually applied.
flatsguide
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:44 pm

Re: barrel torque direction

Post by flatsguide »

If you have a rifle with a RH twist look at the rifling through the chamber, look at the start of the rifling at the twelve o’clock position, look at that one top land, it curves to the right. Forget about the other rifling for a moment. When the bullet starts to engrave that land it will force that land to the left, in affect, causing it to rotate counterclockwise. This was really brought home to me a few days ago with my .45-70. I was playing around with breech seating some PP 535gn pills. My normal load is 81.5 gns Swiss 1.5 but the breech seat load was 86 grains, after touching off the first load, I mentioned to my shooting pard, Ron Snover, that the torque from that load, was considerably more than my normal load, and it was to the left.
Shooting a 45-110 must be considerably more torque, and a real handful. Next time I shoot im going to take a slo-mo video and watch what happens.
It looks like this is one of the things we’re we will agree to disagree.
Cheers Richard
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: barrel torque direction

Post by mdeland »

Richard, go back and view Sandhillcowboy1 video on this thread and watch which way the gun torques. It is a right hand twist 45-110 and it clearly torques right.
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: barrel torque direction

Post by mdeland »

I think what your perceiving as torque is the additional recoil from the heavier bullet/load against your cheek from the stock comb.
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: barrel torque direction

Post by mdeland »

In the video reduce the speed as the poster suggests to .25 speed and watch both the front sight and the rear sight staff. They both move to the rear and then right under the recoil impulse, never do they move left in the slightest.
flatsguide
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:44 pm

Re: barrel torque direction

Post by flatsguide »

Mdeland, I’m truly not trying to argue. I went back and played it at 1/4 speed and I still see the front sight rotate to the left then right. I cannot see the staff of the rear sight until later in the recoil sequence and it is moving to the right then.
Next time I shoot, I’ll photograph it in slo-mo then play it back at .25 speed. Look at it again at .25 and see if you see it go to the left for a moment.
I’ll post my video when I shoot again. I have a match coming up on Wednesday I’ll get some pics then. It will be interesting.
Cheers Richard
Tomklinger
Posts: 449
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:00 pm
Location: Florida

Re: barrel torque direction

Post by Tomklinger »

Gentlemen,
I just did an experiment, I stood my rifle, barrel down on the floor. Got a tight patch on my cleaning rod and pushed it down the barrel from the breech end not allowing the cleaning rod to turn. Simulating a bullet starting down the bore.Now, the BARREL rotated COUNTER CLOCKWISE, the STOCK which is BELOW the centerline of the barrel, moved to the right! The scope which is above the center line of the barrel moved to the LEFT…….Now you have it, it’s easy! :D
Tom Klinger
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: barrel torque direction

Post by mdeland »

I understand your not arguing for the sake of it but are just firm in your conviction of the subject and truly enjoy your counter thought as it will either reinforce what I believe is occurring or it will over power it and the truth will emerge.
I watched it many times as well in .25 slow mo looking for any front sight movement left and all I could see for sure is straight back then to the right.
I have no doubt Newtons 3 law is most certainly in effect but it is being completely neutralized and over powered by bullet inertia and friction load up bore.
The cleaning rod example does not take into account bullet friction load or inertia on the bore rifling helix angle and there for is a good illustration of Newtons third law but it is not the same scenario as barrel torque.
Tomklinger
Posts: 449
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:00 pm
Location: Florida

Re: barrel torque direction

Post by Tomklinger »

Mdeland,
In your own misguided way, you are agreeing with me, :lol:
Tom
mdeland
Posts: 11708
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm

Re: barrel torque direction

Post by mdeland »

If you have ever had occasion to drive a bullet through a bore with a hammer and rod as I have quite a few times there will be no question in your mind which way the barrel wants to turn.
This precisely the same scenario as a bullet being driven up bore by a burning powder load. The hammer blows on the rod at the base of the bullet keep pressure on the bullet base keeping it bumped up as it were just as the burning powder increased pressure does up bore. The grip the expanded lead bullet has on the bore interior is very great and is the reason it wants to take the barrel with it instead of letting it turn counter clock.
Post Reply