Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

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semtav
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Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by semtav » Wed May 05, 2021 6:43 pm

ReadingTodd and Jims comments elsewhere about their spotters and Lodi's paper match got me to thinking.

Altho I would really suck at it because of lack of experience, I think I understand the concept of wind coaching at a papermatch. Pretty straighforward ( i did not say easy). The real spotter is in the pit, the wind coach is mostly focusing on the conditions and helping the shooter with adjustments, condition changes etc.

In gong matches, you can have a whole myriad of different scenerios. Depending on what the shooter likes.
Some like their spotter do do it all, some like their spotter just to call the location of the hits, and everywhere in between.

Im just curious how other gong shooters like to have there spotter work.

I know for me the most important skill of a spotter is seeing a hit on a dirty target. (Something else i suck at)
Too much attention to the conditions and they miss where the hit was.

I really dont like to twist my knobs much so if im stuck in the lower right corner of the target and still hitting i probably wont change unless i see a condition that will take me off that corner, and sometimes sacrifice a miss to stay there.

How do others like to do it?

Kurt
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Re: Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by Kurt » Wed May 05, 2021 7:54 pm

At the gong shoots it gets tough to see hits. I looked over shooters shoulder with my scope and listen to the spotter calling hits and have heard the spotter give a wrong call where the shot hit. I cant see them all either and I doubt that most that shoot the gong shoots will see the all hits.
I will not tell my shooter where the shot hit unless I see the hit. I will tell the shooter if I didn't see the shot go in that the plate swung left or right if I see it.
The Quigley only has one flag and I use it if I can see it, :D but there are those little white butterflies that cant fly into the Montana wind, but there is always the smoke and dust from the person next to you to judge my shot placement. :D

I like my spotter not to guess where the unseen hit hit, just say I didn't see it. Wind changes I can see my self or feel where it hits me.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

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jackrabbit
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Re: Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by jackrabbit » Wed May 05, 2021 9:16 pm

The interesting thing about going from silhouettes or gongs and to paper targets is that you are no longer trying to hit the target. You are now trying to hit the center of the target. I find it requires a whole different mind set and strategy. All are fun.

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powderburner
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Re: Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by powderburner » Thu May 06, 2021 8:41 am

Thats a n interesting observation. And pretty true. Mostly because the targets get dirty and one cant see bullet strikes,So you dont want to change settings when hitting.
And true different formats but all fun.
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mdeland
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Re: Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by mdeland » Thu May 06, 2021 5:08 pm

I never liked to crank on sights either but I feel it a necessity if your ever going to improve on condition adjustment which is really the name of the game past about 400 yards in my opinion. Holding Kentucky gets increasingly imprecise as the yards extend on paper or steel.

semtav
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Re: Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by semtav » Thu May 06, 2021 5:59 pm

mdeland wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 5:08 pm
I never liked to crank on sights either but I feel it a necessity if your ever going to improve on condition adjustment which is really the name of the game past about 400 yards in my opinion. Holding Kentucky gets increasingly imprecise as the yards extend on paper or steel.
I should clarify my cranking on the sights comment.
It didnt mean i like to shade, I dont. I meant im happy to stay in my little corner of the target.
If i shade and get a pinwheel, then I have to remember how much i shaded each time or how much more or less i have to shade on each succesive shot
I can barely remember which way the wind was blowing on the last shot.

I had to do that shooting military matches cause i always drug some old foreign model without adjustable sights to the match.

Gamerancher
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Re: Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by Gamerancher » Thu May 06, 2021 6:40 pm

If I'm shooting a "gong" match, I like to know where I'm hitting. A call of "target hit" tells me nothing. If that hit is on the edge of a target, I need to know, so that I can correct my sights to hit nearer centre. Too keep shooting with a sight setting that puts you anywhere else is only going to lead to a missed target with any change in "condition". Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the main reason for having adjustable sights. :wink:
Out in western NSW where it don't rain much.
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semtav
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Re: Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by semtav » Thu May 06, 2021 8:30 pm

Thatas the whole point of the thread Gamerancher.
How do you play the game .
Not all play it the same way, !!!

Obvously I don't.

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desert deuce
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Re: Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by desert deuce » Thu May 06, 2021 10:25 pm

Can't comment on gong matches but it sounds like you are saying that any hit is the same as an X in a target match.
Interesting the mention of registering a hit but not seeing the hit. No mention the size of targets or distances.
If so coaching/spotting in a target match is a whole different animal. Distance and size of target are known.
Pit crew marks the value of the shot from zero to ten.
Sounds like comparing apples and oranges.
In target minimum conversation to convey the necessary information is golden and the process requires a certain amount of precision.
Is gong shooting more like a social interaction where the measurable reward is any hit? :? If so isn't it is a simple question of communication?
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!

sandhillcowboy1
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Re: Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by sandhillcowboy1 » Fri May 07, 2021 12:52 am

Gamerancher wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 6:40 pm
If I'm shooting a "gong" match, I like to know where I'm hitting. A call of "target hit" tells me nothing. If that hit is on the edge of a target, I need to know, so that I can correct my sights to hit nearer centre. Too keep shooting with a sight setting that puts you anywhere else is only going to lead to a missed target with any change in "condition". Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the main reason for having adjustable sights. :wink:
It was written that dirty targets are part of the Q and everyone gets close to their fair share of them the way repaints are spaced out. Unfortunately there are times when the target does become shot up and you have no way of calling hit locations accurately and are relegated to watching to see where a miss may land to guide you:) That is part of the gong game and is accepted by those that shoot them, which at the Q amounts to 500-600 plus shooters generally each year. No fancy wind meters allowed either :) Just you and a spotter, with the shooter on sticks or offhand, none of that prone stuff involved. It would seem the paper shooting perhaps could be construed to be more of a social interaction with a shooter, spotter, and target puller? :)

Not adjusting the sights doesn't mean you don't know how to on a gong, it just means you don't know which way to adjust it to hit center when you cannot see the hit, therefore it is wise to not adjust sight and keep shooting. A wind change may cost you a shot or two but adjusting sight may cost you more. The Q is shot volley style, no waiting for wind changes. Not having shot a paper match I can't comment on the time allowed in those between shots.

All BPCR shooting is fun and the level of fun is defined by one's own satisfaction.

Rick
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DeadEye
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Re: Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by DeadEye » Fri May 07, 2021 6:52 am

The elephant in the room is that at the 'Q' there are no sighters and that is true for most gong matches. If the target is already 'greyed' out from hits hearing a hit on the first shot is a blessing and a curse. Then the guessing begins and like Kurt said sometimes all you have to go by is which way the target swung on the hanger but that tells you nothing about your elevation. Knowing your elevation and wind calls is all important. There is no sneaking up on the 'X' with sighters. Many years ago I was given a paper that had been published by the U.S. Military when it was testing the 45-70 Government cartridge with the old #457125 out to a 1000 yards. It was found that at 1000 yards 1 mph of wind would deflect the bullet 1 moa. I can't remember what velocity was stated but this was the standard military issue round and when I read it I found that it was very close to the 1250 fps. I was shooting. I use either the 545 gr. Creedmoor or the 535 gr. Postell and have found the above formula to be very useful. Also knowing the squad of shooters you are in is very useful. I have shot with the same guys for years now and I always ask for position #5 when the squadding is done. They are all good shooters and I have my other secret weapon, Spot, watch their hits or misses. She sits just over my right shoulder and slightly behind me. As each of the men ahead of me fires she uses my back to indicate with her finger where their hit was. From there I make final adjustments. This process has allowed me to go 32/32 on targets #2 to #5 on occasion. BTW, I paid $450 to MVA for that rear sight and I turn the knobs because that's why they're there. Ain't it fun?

Paul
"My heroes have always been cowboys and they still are it seems."

mike herth
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Re: Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by mike herth » Fri May 07, 2021 7:33 am

Well said Paul. Thanks for sharing. This is an interesting topic. Now if we could just eliminate those diamond shaped gongs...

Kurt
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Re: Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by Kurt » Fri May 07, 2021 7:44 am

DeadEye wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 6:52 am
Then the guessing begins and like Kurt said sometimes all you have to go by is which way the target swung on the hanger but that tells you nothing about your elevation.
Paul
But Paul, this is where the dust comes into play I mentioned when the previous shooter kicks it up.

:D I like the idea spot uses calling your wind changes :D
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill

semtav
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Re: Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by semtav » Fri May 07, 2021 7:48 am

Paul is hinting at what i was looking for.

Simple scenerio:
800 yd octagon, your spotter just called your shot 4 o'clock just out of the white.

What do YOU do next?

semtav
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Re: Spotter vs wind coach --- gong vs paper

Post by semtav » Fri May 07, 2021 8:42 am

Incidentally there's no wrong answer I'm just curious what other people like to do.

Do you like your spotter to call one minute up one minute left, do you prefer to make your own call ,do you leave it where it's at and shoot again for the same spot if there's no change in the wind?

Do you always move your site the full range of what it takes to get to center or fudge and just move halfway ?

Just curious what other people's thought processes are

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