BPCR Matches

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TexasMac
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BPCR Matches

Post by TexasMac »

I’ve been thinking about the waning interest in some of the big bore matches in Texas & around the country. I don’t have any good ideas on how to increase overall interest but do have some suggestion for State & Regional Match after discussing it with several shooters & experienced Match Directors.

• Cash awards for winners are not a good idea. Excess funds that are not used for match expenses should be used to purchase nice prizes.
• Any prizes (donated or purchased with match funds) should NOT be awarded to match winners.
• Drawings should be used where all competitors have an equal chance is the way to distribute prizes.
• Match winners should be awarded very nice plaques, medallions, etc.
• The spotters for the winning shooters should also get a plaque, medallion, etc. They’re an important part of the winning team.

In general it diminishes the fun/interest for many if not most of the competitors if the best prizes go to the few top shooters who tend to dominate the matches.
===============================================

Another factor that I strongly believe diminishes the interest in matches is the trend to go to “any sight” matches. I.e., no distinction is made between iron & scope shooters. Some of the local, regional and state matches around the country are using this format. One argument is the score differential between iron & scope shooters is either nonexistent or too small to justify separate awards for iron & scope winners. This may very well be the case for the very top level shooters but in general scope shooters have an advantage of several points over iron sight shooter.

No doubt this thread will result in some strongly worded & long-winded comments from those with strong personalities that disagree. For those of you that may agree or disagree please don’t be intimidated by others. I’m very interested in seeing as many responses as possible. Finally, I don’t intend to defend my comments other than what is stated above.

Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
http://www.texas-mac.com
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desert deuce
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Re: BPCR Matches

Post by desert deuce »

Interesting you should bring up this subject at this point in time when there is unprecedented interruption in normalcy world wide.
However, any time is a good time to discuss the current state of affairs in our chosen sport.
With that in mind can we divide the conversation into two distinctly different areas, BPCR (Silhouette), BPTR (Target Rifle)

I am all ears. :)
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
SSShooter
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Re: BPCR Matches

Post by SSShooter »

Wayne - Agree with everything you've said.
We do award cash prizes to as many places as possible for my BPTR mid-range matches and one or our local BPCR matches. But, it is a nominal amount and amounts to a free entry at the next match is about all. And, other than Brian Chilson in scope, we rotate winners more often then not. Such a small amount that I've not heard a complaint in the years I've been a match director or competitor.
Glenn
jackrabbit
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Re: BPCR Matches

Post by jackrabbit »

The only places that are suffering "waning interest" are the ones that are doing the things you suggest. Socialism has never worked, and participation prizes are a joke. I personally hate door prizes and think they are an absolute waste of time and money. If the only reason someone is coming to a match is so they can take home a participation prize, they are there for the wrong reason. This is competitive shooting and people want to be competitive. Celebrate the winners! That is why we have classes! Give good prizes for the MW and the first several places in each class. If you want to win something, shoot better! Give me a break, you want to reward someone for crummy shooting? That really makes the guys that have worked hard to improve want to come back... As far as cash prizes, a lot of people like those better than yet another 3rd place AA plaque. Yes, some of the new shooters like the plaques better than cash, but for most of the shooters they already have boxes full of plaques. Cash prizes are also very easy for the match management to do. We do agree on rewarding the spotters, but it looks to me like most matches are already doing that.

Coming from a group that has started matches from absolute ZERO and built them into a dedicated shooting community, here is what you do.
#1 Promote, promote, promote! Match writeups, advertisements, pictures, websites, facebook pages, presence on forums, etc, etc, etc! Very few matches are doing this at all, and few do it beyond the bare minimum.
#2 Celebrate the Winners! Give good prizes when you can, but take pictures, make certificates, put their winning faces and names out in your promotional material. Make the winners feel good about winning, and make every one else wish they had won.
#3 Socializing! For most of us, a big part of the pleasure in shooting competitively is seeing and interacting with out friends, so do what you can to promote it! Lunches go over well here at Smithmoor as well as we do several other things to help people enjoy each other.

Your continual ridiculous rant about combining scope and iron classes is just that, ridiculous. As far as I know, only a few places are doing it. The ones I know of are Smithmoor (successful) the Showdown match in Raton (successful) and HOTSA is going to try it this year. I'll go out on a limb and go ahead and predict it is successful as well. You have not shot any of these matches, so how the heck would you know anything about how successful or not they are???

If you are just a shooter and not able to be a match director and you are concerned about numbers, help your match director! Write match writeups, put stuff on line, organize a meal, help gather prizes, there is lots you can do to help. Most of them will welcome the help.

If anybody thinks giving everybody a freaking participation prize will solve their numbers problems, forget it.
Cody Smith
jackrabbit
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Re: BPCR Matches

Post by jackrabbit »

Everyone should take a harder look at the matches at Friendship. What all are they doing? I am asking as I don't know, but whatever it is, it is working! Their regional was quite large and they had been full for monthes. There are LOTS of newer shooters and names I have never heard or seen anywhere else. There were tons of positive comments about it. I want to go!
Glen Ring
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Re: BPCR Matches

Post by Glen Ring »

Wayne
We are going several things similar to your ideas.
We run NRA lever Action Silhouette matches. The top three with each gun ( it's a three gun match Rifle, Pistol cartridge and smallbore ) get NRA medallions and that's cool. Then there's the aggregate 1,2,and 3rd place medallions . The rest of the folks get the door prizes.
We treat B, A, AA and AAA class shooters as good as the master shooters and they get medals also. We give a middle man award..just what it says, the person that finishes in the middle of the match gets a cash prize of $100.00.

Anyone under 18 shoots for free.

We have 3 man team vs 3 man team shoot offs . We use the NRA value ie master 5, AAA 4, etc to decide the number of targets the team has to knock down to advance. A three man master team will need to knock down all five targets faster than a 3 man team of b shooters who get only two targets. The winning team gets either $100 each or $50 bucks each ( depending on leftover funds) and a framed award . We had the pleasure of watching a 15 year old B shooter who was a kid that hunted, put a whippin in the man vs man shootoffs on the great Jim Luke! He'll never forget smoking a multi national champion and neither will ole Jim lol!!!

One thing we DO NOT do is put all all masters beside each other. We have actually had shooters tell us we should put everyone that has a possibility of winning the match on the same relay. When we say " Cool , now give us that list" , that's usually the end of that request. The first big 22 BPCR match I shot was with Brian Chilson...he won, I was a lower class shooter and I learned SO much that ONE match from him. New shooters need to watch and learn from veteran/better shooters. Putting everyone in the mix allows that .

The one negative thing we really look out for are the shooters that win a lower class EVERY year at the big matches. The old system required three scores in a higher class to move up and year after year a few..VERY few , would game it and not bust out of class. We are VERY vigilant and have caught a few sandbaggers and moved them up.

Matches must be FUN! Get on the line, do your best and then get off the line and have FUN!!
We are having our Eighth regional and have folks coming from several different states with family...there are several juniors under 16 and the majority of our shooters are NOT masters. I think we are very close to 60 which is our max number of shooters.
There are those that talk, and those that act. Make a choice.
Woody
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Re: BPCR Matches

Post by Woody »

I'm not the match director in Friendship, but I am on the NMLRA/NRA Regional planning committee and also on the board of the Miami BPCR Club.

We, (both organizations), hired Lora as our match director, because the job, (yes I said job), requires a person who has a certain skill set. Lora has that. She is assisted by a core group of concerned shooters who don't want to do her job, but are willing to do some of the grunt work. We promote our matches on this forum and in the NMLRA mag, as well as a plug in the BPRC News. Our monthly matches are well attended and we welcome new shooters and do our best to help them have a positive first experience. Our range is one of the best groomed and assessable that I have shot.

Cody, I don't agree with all of what you posted, and tend to agree more with Wayne on this subject. I think one reason our Regional has been successful, is that we have grown a strong monthly program, that attracts shooters from several states each month.

Woody

Please any that shoot at Friendship, please post why.
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mdeland
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Re: BPCR Matches

Post by mdeland »

Friendship boosts BPCR Silhouette participation because of the very old and successful muzzle loading history which is the main venue their with Chunk guns, smooth bores, cap and flint rifle , shot gun, pistol, bow and arrow and even tomahawk throw competition. They have traders row and all sorts of Kid venues as well. The idea at friendship is to get the whole family and friends together and involved in something of interest to all and that is the reason for their continued success and growth. Many of them camp together as well which is a huge fellowship adhesive ! The monthly Muzzle blast magazine is also very smart promotion because it keeps us all connected year around. It even has an obituary (The Last Relay) to keep the shooting family abreast of what's going on as our elderly family pass onto their reward. As odd as it sounds this too is a bit of connective cohesiveness that the NMLRA has discovered and put into practice.
But even the NMLRA faces falling participation but is actively combating it the best of any organization I'm a member of.
Glen Ring
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Re: BPCR Matches

Post by Glen Ring »

Wayne
One more thing Jeanne does is make sure each shooter has a personalized item in their packet. An OBI, Towell, etc... Shooters STILL approach her at matches and brag on the OBI that Jeanne personalized with their name.

Woody
We want to shoot in that part of the country next year. ONE video convinced me I want to shoot there..Lora was at some kind of dinner, lots of people, music came on and she took a mic and started SINGING at her table!!!!! Now that's the kind of fun environment we want to be at.
There are those that talk, and those that act. Make a choice.
jackrabbit
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Re: BPCR Matches

Post by jackrabbit »

TexasMac wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:07 pm
In general it diminishes the fun/interest for many if not most of the competitors if the best prizes go to the few top shooters who tend to dominate the matches.
Absolutely mind numbingly shocking that people would go to a match, shoot like crap, think they deserve a prize, and then begrudge the shooter that put the time and effort in to shoot well and win.
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desert deuce
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Re: BPCR Matches

Post by desert deuce »

Wondering? To me prizes are like drawing from a prize table, awards are like plaques, trophies, etc for winning matches. Two distinctly different subjects.

Normally speaking, at a silhouette or target match one can pretty much look at the competitor list and guess fairly close which shooters will place at the top and if say there are 60 shooters usually you can pick six and the winner will probably be one of those six. The other 5 + 50 will have a mishap, gun break, barrel foul out, scope mount screw go loose, run out of time, vortex pull target out of frame, dog eat scorecard etc which adversely affects their score. (I purposely did not include cross fires in target or a silhouette out of sequence.)

Worrying about participation trophies, fairness, etc, well, we have basic rules (rule book) for everyone and it is more or less no different than paying a green fee to play golf. The enduring idea is to play well, have fun and enjoy yourself, and no, you should not expect to beat Tiger Woods on any given day either or in our case Brian Chilson should he show up. In essence, you are actually competing against yourself because shooting is 96% a mental game.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
TexasMac
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Re: BPCR Matches

Post by TexasMac »

desert deuce wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:28 pm ...To me prizes are like drawing from a prize table, awards are like plaques, trophies, etc for winning matches. Two distinctly different subjects...
I completely agree.
Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
http://www.texas-mac.com
SSShooter
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Re: BPCR Matches

Post by SSShooter »

Woody wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:17 pmWoody
Please any that shoot at Friendship, please post why.
Unfortunately, have not gotten to get any further from home than KY this season, but always enjoy the matches at Friendship. Even prior to paving of the line, moving the rams to 500m (rather than yd) and expanding the # of banks, I've always enjoyed shooting at Friendship for the same reason I enjoy shooting at every venue I've shot at (PA x2, KY, IN, MI, GA, KS, OK, TX & NM). Great people and a well run match.
Even when Connors was running the NM matches I enjoyed shooting them and, while I thought he was a rude piece of work, was never going to let that keep me from having a good time. Why let some asshole that you really have minimal contact with keep you from enjoying the match. There are generally at least 25 other folks you do like and enjoy being around for however many days.
The only complaint I have with any venue are the ones who charges non-members more to shoot the match then they charge members. I simply think that is unfriendly and unwelcoming. Especially as the non-member has likely driven much further to get there than have the members. Are they going to defray his travel expenses? We keep our matches as inexpensive as possible and charge all the same (juniors are free). Everyone is welcome to join in the fun.
Glenn
GrumpyBear
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Re: BPCR Matches

Post by GrumpyBear »

Friendship is a really friendly venue for shooters, the matches are very well run, and the range is well groomed with berms that you can see the misses on.

I've been to a fair number of matches and not just back East, and have never been to one that is better organized, and more fun. Lora and her crew are to be much appreciated.


The prizes at the Regional are by drawing, at the dinner on Saturday evening.


Oh, and the rams are at 500 yards , not meters there. Don't forget that when dialing in your scope settings. :D
Aviator
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Re: BPCR Matches

Post by Aviator »

As one who is fairly new to BPCR shooting, I wasn't around for "the good old days".
Here are a few dis-jointed thoughts from my perspective.

I believe that there are several reasons why people attend BPCR Silhouette and Target Rifle matches. I have several myself....

I have never been a very outgoing person, and do not have hundreds or thousands of friends. But in the short time that I have been going to Silhouette and Target Rifle matches, I have developed some very good friendships. And that is one of the reasons to keep going back- to see friends. I observe some folks who will likely never finish at the top of a match, and it is not obvious that they have any intention of working hard at getting better, but they still enjoy being there for the comraderie. And I do not see anything wrong with that.

I am a little more competitive than that. And have worked pretty hard at getting better, and learning from the experienced folks who have taken an interest in helping a new guy. If someone was willing to make the effort to help me, I didn't want for them to think they were wasting their time. I believe that there are several who take pleasure in knowing that they have made a difference. And a real friend will help you fix your rifle when you have a problem at a match, and then do such a good job spotting/coaching that you beat them at a match!

It really is a pretty great group of people who compete in BPCR matches, and that is one of the things that makes me want to keep going. I have observed a few negative occurrences, and have had my sight settings messed with while the rifle was un-attended. But I think things like that are far from common-place. If they ever become the norm, I would find something to else to spend my time and money doing.

I do not go to a match expecting to win. But, I do go planning to place near the top, and that I will do the best that I can. And also to do well as a spotter/coach, and have that shooter beat me! When things don't work out, I (hopefully) can figure out why , and do better next time.

I do not go to a match expecting to go home with a bunch of participation gifts.
I do value the plaques and trophies that I have been fortunate to earn, and they are displayed in my home and shop and bring back memories.

At Friendship, Indiana, there is not much in the way of door prizes at monthly matches. Often someone will donate something of moderate value (usually an alcoholic beverage) that is given away by a random drawing. That is a nice touch.
First place in each class gets a 1 oz silver coin, and second and third place get honorable mention.
And of course there is the Chicken Pool, where the high chicken count gets the massive pool of money generated by the competitors who put a quarter in the pot. You don't want to be high chicken shooter and lose it because you didn't put your quarter in!
In Big Bore, scope and iron sight are separate awards. I personally do not care whether they are separate or combined.

At Friendship, we are extremely lucky to have Sandy, who runs the food trailer! She is open for breakfast, lunch, and snacks, and that is a huge asset! Of course, the lunch at Smithmoor can't be beat....

And free camping for members who are competitors at Friendship is an appreciated feature.

Lora really does a great job at Friendship, keeping things running smoothly. And the target setters she arranges do a great job too! Some of them are even related to her!

I guess in the end, what really matters is when I leave after a match, is that I feel like I was welcomed and belonged there for the match.

Well, I've got to go cast some bullets so I can go to another match!
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