PP suplanting GG national records

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mdeland
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PP suplanting GG national records

Post by mdeland »

Are there any national records (match points) in midrange, long range and Creedmoor set by grease groove bullets that have been supplanted by paper patch bullet use ?
I'm not aware of any but if wrong about that would like to get my facts straight.
semtav
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Re: PP suplanting GG national records

Post by semtav »

In what venue?
NRA ?
BPTRA ??
Local matches like DD's ?
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desert deuce
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Re: PP suplanting GG national records

Post by desert deuce »

You know, I have sorta been sitting here on the sidelines anticipating this particular question or should I say issue to eventually be broached.

First of all, I wonder if it should be in question or issue at all based on historical black powder target rifle match results, (you can check them I don't need to), moreover, the reluctance to fully recognize the obvious important factor that is actually controlling is almost stunning.

Admittedly I am just an ordinary black powder target rifle shooter out here doing the best I can with what I have to work with.

I attend as many matches as I can and if not present try to keep up with the results on what ever is published as scores and narratives.

So I am claiming a qualified opinion on this question/issue based on experience and match results.

In qualifying that opinion I contend that there are three "principal" (not all inclusive) components that interact during the firing of record scores at competitive black powder target rifle matches. First and foremost is the shooter. Nothing, absolutely nothing happens until the shooter picks up a rifle and takes their place on the firing line. Incidental to the success of the shooter is the rifle and load that the shooter employs for the duration of the competition, understanding that the same shooter is also responsible for the quality development of both and paramount in the application of both in a match.

Therefore, win loose or draw, it is the shooter that is the critical element above all others and why shouldn't we focus our attention there and minimize confirmational, (I love it when spell check doesn't recognize a correctly spelled word), bias deflecting attention to ancillary and inanimate objects?

In this case Ian Egbert won a long range match utilizing a rifle that Ian developed a load for and learned how to apply this rifle and load to a great affect in a match. Once again, the rifleman was and is the key determining factor.

Recognizing the obvious that should Ian have chosen to apply the same dedication and effort to developing this rifle and load with an alternative projectile that the same result would have been achieved.

Ian Egbert succeeded because he put in the time and effort to succeed and for that reason alone he won.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
GrumpyBear
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Re: PP suplanting GG national records

Post by GrumpyBear »

Well stated DD.
GrumpyBear
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Re: PP suplanting GG national records

Post by GrumpyBear »

Well stated DD.
mdeland
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Re: PP suplanting GG national records

Post by mdeland »

Did GG bullets eventually dominate and supplant PP bullets because the technology was superior or is that an illusion ? If true than can PP bullets eventually win back their status as the most accurate black powder projectiles and become the status quo on a national level ?
ian45662
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Re: PP suplanting GG national records

Post by ian45662 »

3 or 4 years ago now I started getting serious about paper patch and I started shooting A LOT more. I went to the range more…I started going to more matches. I found that I enjoyed making and shooting PP ammo that I was doing it all the time. At that same time I started shooting better and more consistent. I suspect it is like what DD has already said which is just time time spent at the bench and behind the trigger but I do know that PP has performed better for me. They seem to shoot better in the conditions that my greasers did. That might all be in my head but then again maybe not. There are some records out there that will probably never be broken. Brian Chilsen has a 97@ at 1000. Good luck getting to that with ANY type of projectile. I have shot several scores 90-93 but I don’t really ever see anyone shooting a 97 ever again. Certainly not myself. On top of that he is the only one who has a perfect score in sillywet. If Brian would have decided way back when that he wanted to shoot PP and applied the same discipline that he has with his current loads then he would have all his records with PP
mdeland
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Re: PP suplanting GG national records

Post by mdeland »

I think that is a very well thought out response ! My guess is that neither have any real accuracy advantage over the other , both given the same effort to succeed with. I too much prefer to wrap patches on bullets and get tired of the fuss and mess of bullet lube.
There is no debate over which look better in a bullet box or loop belt.
I was thinking that the GGs current dominance was perhaps more from them being practical from a military perspective initially a century or so ago and were found to be equally accurate for competition more as a side discovery.
From the competitive shooter stand point I think it is probably generally easier for the new shooter to gain success faster using GG's than PP's.
My guess is that the practical side of GG use and relative ease of making them shoot well has more to do with their popularity and dominance than any other reason.
That could very well change if enough shooters take up the challenge as some of you have and press forward with record setting results !
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desert deuce
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Re: PP suplanting GG national records

Post by desert deuce »

Ian nailed it: "That might all be in my head but then again maybe not." It is a case of mental preparation.

The ancient mantra among the experienced successful "competitive shooters" that I grew up with, " shooting is 96% mental preparation and 4% physical ability. "

Unfortunately, I have yet to meet Brian Chilson or Ian Egbert, BUT, I do/did know and have actually shot with competitive shooters of similar and even greater accomplishments.

The way I see it. Ian went to the Hepsworth match knowing that he had done the rote preparation of load development, trigger time (most important), and the attitude adjustment (his own mental aspect adjustment) that was necessary for him to perform his best in match competition. Having done this he simply laid down on the mat and let it happen.

It was/is the mental attitude that he approaches competitive shooting with that made the difference, and, the big bonus he had fun doing it. :D
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
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desert deuce
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Re: PP suplanting GG national records

Post by desert deuce »

An afterthought for Ian and several other aspiring riflemen.

Ian mentioned Brian Chilson shooting a 97 at 1,000 yards and the best Ian had shot was a 93. Apples and Oranges.

That is not a comparison. It would only be valid if Ian had been on the same relay shooting with Brian same time and place. (conditions)

For all Ian or Brian know, Brian might have shot a 90 when Ian shot a 93 at a different time and place? (conditions)

Remembering at match I shot in where some of the top shooters at the time were on the firing line and the high score for the day was a 209/300. That was the best that could be done at that range, that day, under those conditions.

So Ian, just keep laying down and letting it happen. Forget about score. Enjoy yourself, have a great time and let it happen. :mrgreen:
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
mdeland
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Re: PP suplanting GG national records

Post by mdeland »

Amen !
Nuclearcricket
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Re: PP suplanting GG national records

Post by Nuclearcricket »

A random thought on this subject. Isn't this kind of like a dog chasing his tail around in a circle. Think about it, started off with stones in a bamboo tube, then patched round balls in a steel tube. Then eventually they went to a greased bullet in a rifled tube. On to self contained with paper patched bullet, then greased bullets. Then a big jump in tech and they patched the bullets with copper/nickle. Then we went back to the greased naked bullet, now back to the paper patched bullets. Almost seems like we are trying to relearn the same things over and over again.
Its kind of sad that the knowledge that we had when PP bullets were kind has been lost and discarded over the years. I hope that this time around those that are experimenting and relearning things with the paper patched bullets write things done so they are well documented for perhaps future reference so we can stop having to relearn things we used to know.
When you get right down to it there is little to no reason a PP bullet can't be equality competitive as a gg bullet is. Its just a matter of putting in the time and effort to figure out what works best in your rifle. I feel the potential is there. Proper casting, patching, loading, shooting and cleaning will get you where you want to be.
There shouldn't be any argument as to which is better. It should be a sharing experience, this is what works for me, what is working for you, what isn't. Simple as that. Eventually someone will step up and take all the goodies home with a PP load, next time it might be a GG shooter. The main effort should be to improve, share and enjoy. In the end there will be no absolute. The only bad load out there is the one you don't try.
Sam
art ruggiero
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Re: PP suplanting GG national records

Post by art ruggiero »

when enough of the top shooters shoot pp then the results will tell. more than 1 way to excel at anything art
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