Loading for a new 40-65

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nlb34
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Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 3:39 pm

Loading for a new 40-65

Post by nlb34 »

I have a new 1877 in 40-65 and have some questions about loading. My root question: what is the over all length I should use? I understand that I need to seat the bullet up to the powder, do I target a power charge and then seat the bullet accordingly or do I target a OAL and then add powder to reach the correct OAL? Also how much should I compress the power. Here are the details on what I have set up so far:
  • Casting with a Lyman 410655 mould (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010235047)
  • Wheel weight lead yielding approximately 417 grains
  • bullet length 1.3"
  • Pan lube with 50/50 olive oil/bees wax
  • Sized at .408"
  • Starline brass
  • .030" Vegetable fiber wads
  • GOEX OE 2F powder
  • will use a drop tube and powder compression die
  • CCI 200 Large rifle primers
gunlaker
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Re: Loading for a new 40-65

Post by gunlaker »

Start with seating the bullet out to just engage the rifling. That will be a good starting point and there is a good chance you won't need to change it.

I'd highly recommend trying the Saeco #740 bullet. There are quite a few people shooting very well with that one. The BACO 409400M4 also works very well in a Shiloh.

Oh, one more thing, If you don't need to size the bullet then don't bother. I shoot both of the above bullets at the size they are cast. In both my Shiloh .40-65's a 0.409" bullet is a perfect slip fit in a fireformed case.

Chris.
nlb34
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Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 3:39 pm

Re: Loading for a new 40-65

Post by nlb34 »

Chris, thank you for your advice. Some searching tonight confirms the above two moulds are highly rated. One follow up question, I read but cant confirm that Buffalo Arms may have changed their part numbers and the 409400M4 became the 409400M5. Do you know which one you have or would recommend? Currently they are both listed for sale but out of stock:

409400M4 - First 2 Bands Reduced in Diameter
https://www.buffaloarms.com/409-400-gra ... 400m4.html

409400M5 - First 3 Bands Reduced in Diameter (also noted it was designed by Jim Kidwell)
https://www.buffaloarms.com/409-400-gra ... 400m5.html
Aviator
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Re: Loading for a new 40-65

Post by Aviator »

Don't worry too much about being listed "out of stock" at Buffalo Arms.
They mostly make to order, right on the premises. My experience has been that you don't have to wait long for them to make your mold. Same with their expander die stem and compression stems.
gunlaker
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Re: Loading for a new 40-65

Post by gunlaker »

Hi,

The BACO money bullet I'm using is the one with 3 reduced bands.

Chris.
SSShooter
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Re: Loading for a new 40-65

Post by SSShooter »

First question to ask is which twist barrel did you get? The Money bullets suggested above shoot well in my 14" twist barrel, but I've not gotten it to shoot well in a 16" twist barrel. Can knock down 10-pigs with it, but turkeys and rams are a problem as it does not group that well for me.

In my 16" twist barrel, BACO's M409430M2 bullet shoots great out to 600yd. I've not tried it at 800/900/1000yd. It likes being pushed by 62-65gr of Swiss powder in a Win case and a 0.060" Walters wad compressed just enough that the bullet engages the lands. It is the most accurate bullet/load I've shot in 10yr+ of shooting the 40-65.
Glenn
nlb34
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Re: Loading for a new 40-65

Post by nlb34 »

First note the primary use for this rifle will be hunting. As for barrel twist rate I had thought 1:16 was the only option in 1877. Now a dumb question, what is the default twist rate for the 1877s? The rifle I got was ordered with a 28" round barrel.
gunlaker
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Re: Loading for a new 40-65

Post by gunlaker »

SSShooter wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:06 am First question to ask is which twist barrel did you get? The Money bullets suggested above shoot well in my 14" twist barrel, but I've not gotten it to shoot well in a 16" twist barrel. Can knock down 10-pigs with it, but turkeys and rams are a problem as it does not group that well for me.

In my 16" twist barrel, BACO's M409430M2 bullet shoots great out to 600yd. I've not tried it at 800/900/1000yd. It likes being pushed by 62-65gr of Swiss powder in a Win case and a 0.060" Walters wad compressed just enough that the bullet engages the lands. It is the most accurate bullet/load I've shot in 10yr+ of shooting the 40-65.
Glenn I'm surprised that bullet doesn't work that well for you. That BACO 400gr money bullet with 3 reduced driving bands shoots extremely well in both my 1:14 twist and 1:16 twist rifles .40-65's. I agree that's it's likely on the edge of stability, at least in theory. But in my 1:16 twist rifle I have shot very competitive scores in strong winds at 600 yards, and it's cleaned the turkeys more than once. I shoot them at just a hair over 1300 fps. I suspect that the slightly shorter 410 gr version of the same bullet ( with 3 reduced bands ) might be better, but I didn't suggest it as I haven't tried it yet.

Also, I would definitely not rule out the lowly Saeco #740. I don't think there is a better bullet up to and including 300 yards. They lose velocity way faster than the Money bullet so I stopped shooting them at rams ( but they are very accurate ). The way ours are set, most of the time they just barely make it off the rail. Most of the time I've shot that bullet with 58gr of Goex FFFg, but it works even better with the same amount of Swiss 1.5 but that involves a pile of compression.

Chris.
gunlaker
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Re: Loading for a new 40-65

Post by gunlaker »

nlb34 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:49 am First note the primary use for this rifle will be hunting. As for barrel twist rate I had thought 1:16 was the only option in 1877. Now a dumb question, what is the default twist rate for the 1877s? The rifle I got was ordered with a 28" round barrel.
Default will be 1:16. You will like it. My first .40-65 has that twist and it's my second most accurate rifle. When practicing at 300 on our local range, Ive had the local TR shooters say my targets would be considered pretty good at their matches. He was probably exaggerating a little, but the rifle is excellent and has won a number of matches. The only one that I have that reliably outshoots it is my 1:16 twist .45-90. It's actually shot a 10 shot sub-moa group at 300 off of cross sticks. I don't think any of my other rifles have done that, but the .40-65 has come close.

If you have the time, read up on what Zack (Desert Deuce) has posted on the .40-65. He is one of the handful of people I've "borrowed" ideas from :-). You'll find that he's a big fan of the Saeco #740 in a 1:16 twist .40-65.

Chris.
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desert deuce
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Re: Loading for a new 40-65

Post by desert deuce »

The Saeco #740 won the Raton Silhouette Match this past summer.
Also holds the current national record mid-range (aggregate) position/prone (new course of fire) and high score national record on the 200 yard off hand target.
I have a 15 Turkey pin and a 15 Ram pin I won during one match at Raton.
I have seen it's big brother #745 work just fine on African Game and have shot 1/2 minute groups at 300 yards with it.
For an order as is commercial .40 cal bullet for hunting game up to Elk & Moose the #740 would get first chance to prove itself. But, given the choice I would go with a .45 cal.
I have most of what Gunlaker mentions as far as bullet moulds are concerned (mould junkie) but for silhouette I have gotten the best scores with the #740.

All this is only important if results matter.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
Coltsmoke
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Re: Loading for a new 40-65

Post by Coltsmoke »

Primary use is hunting. I would use the bullet you have for hunting over the money bullet. I would want a softer alloy than pure WW lead. You need to mix some pure lead with the WW lead to soften it up some. 20-1 or 30-1 lead tin mix would be even better, you may have some leading in the barrel from the WW lead, maybe not. I would size the bullet to .409 instead of .408. Find the OAL first and then see how much powder it takes to reach the bottom of the bullet, start there with "0" compression. Load up 5 and see how they group, add another grain of powder, compress to maintain the same OAL. Keep doing the same for 5 or 6 powder charges and see which powder charge groups the best.
Normal isn't coming back, but Jesus is.
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Distant Thunder
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Re: Loading for a new 40-65

Post by Distant Thunder »

The easiest, if not the best way, to find a starting C.O.A.L. (cartridge overall length) is to drop a sized bullet (if your sizing at all) into the open chamber with the muzzle down. I like to just give the bullet a bit of a push with a wooden dowel so I’m sure it’s all the way down in the chamber. Leaving the block open and using you dial calipers as a depth mic measure from the breech end of the barrel to the base of the bullet.

Take that measurement and add the length of the bullet and you’ll have a good loaded overall length to start with. You can load up one cartridge to that length and see how it chambers then adjust longer or shorter as needed.

Many years ago before I knew better and was shooting grease groove bullets I liked to have the breech block push the bullet against the rifling leade and just engrave the leading edge of the first groove diameter band. Shooting bore diameter paper patch bullets as I do now this is all unnecessary and I can seat to whatever C.O.A.L. the rifle/cartridge likes best.

YMMV
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
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Don McDowell
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Re: Loading for a new 40-65

Post by Don McDowell »

If one feels the need to shoot a grooved bullet in the 40-65 the 409 395c1 shoots well
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?
marlinman93
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Re: Loading for a new 40-65

Post by marlinman93 »

I shoot the Lyman 410655, and the Lyman 410663 Snover both in my .40-65. I don't see any difference in accuracy between the two in my 1:16" twist Green Mountain barrel. Both are accurate bullets that do well at any distance I've shot them.
nlb34
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Re: Loading for a new 40-65

Post by nlb34 »

I measured as Jim recommended (thank you) and then proceeded to add powder to reach the COAL, see my below notes. I am using GOEX OE 2F and a .030 wad, no compression. I was surprised to see only 47 grains by weight fit, does this match what others have seen? I was expecting closer to 57 grains, will this powder compress that much to get 10 more grains?

Image

Thanks again, Brad
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