Powder measure

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Graybeard
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:11 pm
Location: Wv

Powder measure

Post by Graybeard »

Hi everyone been awhile. Had COVID-19. Anyway. Just wondering what’s the best powder measure for black powder. I have a rcbs regular scale. Is that as accurate as some of the digital ones. Thanks
beltfed
Posts: 1962
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:07 am
Location: Central Wi

Re: Powder measure

Post by beltfed »

I can say that my Lyman 55 powder measure does a good job for dumping black powder.
Then, I also have the habit of dumping "most" of the charge , jsut a few tenths of a grain light, then
place the charge on the pan of my Lyman 1010 powder scale and bring the charge up to exact weight with my powder dribbler.
I have complete confidence in the powder scales. For some reason, stray static amongst them, I do not trust the digitals for precision
charge weight determination. The scales, as long as they are level and the knife edge pivots are kept clean and dry, will measure
Exactly to 0.1 grain, Every Time
beltfed/arnie
Kurt
Posts: 8428
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: Powder measure

Post by Kurt »

Dollar for dollar I would put more trust into a balanced beam scales than a digital. :D
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
rgchristensen
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:51 pm

Re: Powder measure

Post by rgchristensen »

Properly-operated drum-type measures can achieve weight delivery with SD of about .15 gr. The old B&M measures will readily do this, but are cumbersome to operate. Their design FORCES you to operate the powder delivery properly. In the cartridges that most of us use, 1 grain of powder corresponds to a velocity difference of 6-7 fps. So .15 gr corresponds to ~ 1 fps velocity SD. Nobody NEEDS to do better than this. Drum measures, however, can be operated incorrectly and give delivery variances of 1/2 gr or more. Weighing powder in open-air balances is fraught with many problems, also. It is, IMHO, futile to expect any useful improvement upon careful dispensing of powder from a good drum measure.

CHRIS
Woody
Posts: 6060
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:02 am
Location: Freetown, Indiana

Re: Powder measure

Post by Woody »

I buy into what Chris just posted. He has been at this a lot longer than me, and I've been at it a day or two.

Woody
Richard A. Wood
If you are surrounded. You are in a target rich environment.
Graybeard
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:11 pm
Location: Wv

Re: Powder measure

Post by Graybeard »

Are you talking about the Lyman micro scales. Thanks
sackett
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 8:26 pm

Re: Powder measure

Post by sackett »

rgchristensen wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:44 pm Properly-operated drum-type measures can achieve weight delivery with SD of about .15 gr. The old B&M measures will readily do this, but are cumbersome to operate. Their design FORCES you to operate the powder delivery properly. In the cartridges that most of us use, 1 grain of powder corresponds to a velocity difference of 6-7 fps. So .15 gr corresponds to ~ 1 fps velocity SD. Nobody NEEDS to do better than this. Drum measures, however, can be operated incorrectly and give delivery variances of 1/2 gr or more. Weighing powder in open-air balances is fraught with many problems, also. It is, IMHO, futile to expect any useful improvement upon careful dispensing of powder from a good drum measure.

CHRIS
So what problems arise when using open-air balance beam scales? I've been using a Redding # 2 scale for decades without issues.

B&M/MVA cumbersome to operate? Really?
rgchristensen
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:51 pm

Re: Powder measure

Post by rgchristensen »

I regularly use a Redding scale that I have owned for (guessing) ~ 60 years. It continues to give good service. Since it is exposed to air currents, I don't expect it to give the results that are available from laboratory-grade balances. I also have a considerable experience of using lab-grade electronic scales, and don't expect them to have the stability of response available from mechanical balances. Not that they are not useful in some instances.

Some years ago, I was given a B&M powder measure which I studied and used a little. It gave good reproducibility of delivery, but no better than a Hollywood drum-type measure. Drum measures can, however, be used incorrectly, and will then not give as good results as the B&M. I do feel that the B&M measure is cumbersome and slow to operate.

Testing of powder measures, powder scales, and evaluation of operator performance thereof requires access to precision weighing instruments and at least a rudimentary knowledge of statistics.

CHRIS
VBull
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:57 am

Re: Powder measure

Post by VBull »

The problem with any "open air" scale is the fact air currents have an effect on the weigh result. I once worked in a plant that required very accurate small sample scales. These were made by Mettler. These scales had the pan inside an enclosure. The sample was not weighed until the sliding door was closed. The sample on an electronic scale is an average of floating results. Most electronic scales use a piezo quartz strain element that can be damaged by sudden shock or trying to measure an overweight sample.
A balance scale uses gravity. This is the most reliable force in the universe. The really fine examples of a balance beam scale will be enclosed in a glass dome. I've used them all in my past employment.
Blackstone
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 11:28 am

Re: Powder measure

Post by Blackstone »

rgchristensen wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:44 pm Properly-operated drum-type measures can achieve weight delivery with SD of about .15 gr. The old B&M measures will readily do this, but are cumbersome to operate. Their design FORCES you to operate the powder delivery properly. In the cartridges that most of us use, 1 grain of powder corresponds to a velocity difference of 6-7 fps. So .15 gr corresponds to ~ 1 fps velocity SD. Nobody NEEDS to do better than this. Drum measures, however, can be operated incorrectly and give delivery variances of 1/2 gr or more. Weighing powder in open-air balances is fraught with many problems, also. It is, IMHO, futile to expect any useful improvement upon careful dispensing of powder from a good drum measure.

CHRIS
Do you get these figures from cronograph testing ?
VBull
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:57 am

Re: Powder measure

Post by VBull »

Blackstone wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:57 am
rgchristensen wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:44 pm Properly-operated drum-type measures can achieve weight delivery with SD of about .15 gr. The old B&M measures will readily do this, but are cumbersome to operate. Their design FORCES you to operate the powder delivery properly. In the cartridges that most of us use, 1 grain of powder corresponds to a velocity difference of 6-7 fps. So .15 gr corresponds to ~ 1 fps velocity SD. Nobody NEEDS to do better than this. Drum measures, however, can be operated incorrectly and give delivery variances of 1/2 gr or more. Weighing powder in open-air balances is fraught with many problems, also. It is, IMHO, futile to expect any useful improvement upon careful dispensing of powder from a good drum measure.

CHRIS
Do you get these figures from cronograph testing ?
I won't answer for Chris since he may have other data, But Yes. I have, but there is a "depends" involved. The 6-7 fps depends on the caliber. I have data that shows my .45 in (.45-90) had a difference of 7fps with an additional grain of a particular lot of Swiss 1.5. I also have data that showed a different lot of Swiss 1.5 had a 10 fps difference. Both had SD's of 5/6. Does that small difference in velocity mean anything at the target? The same results when using a .38-55 but the velocity gain per grain of powder was higher. More like 10-12 fps increase.

As I've said in the past you will get a bigger bang for your buck getting quality range time, pay attention to the conditions, develop muscle memory so you can tell when your out of position and be consistent in everything you do. This is not F class. You can't weigh/measure your way into the winners circle. Realizing when good enough is good enough...........priceless.
jackrabbit
Posts: 1792
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:04 pm
Location: Carpenter Wyoming

Re: Powder measure

Post by jackrabbit »

Absolutely! Great reply!
charlie young
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Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:44 pm
Location: froid, montana

Re: Powder measure

Post by charlie young »

VBull nailed it!
Kenny Wasserburger
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:53 pm
Location: Gillette, Wyoming

Re: Powder measure

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Frank blew it out of the water. Dead on.


I won two 5@200 at Raton using a RCBS charge master. :P :shock:

Then other gold medals were probably just luck, yet any day I can beat ‘em all at 600 yards. I won’t change.

Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
Blackstone
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 11:28 am

Re: Powder measure

Post by Blackstone »

This is something I've tested more than once and never could see any difference between weighing and not weighing . I shoot around 5 - 8 k a year over the cronograph.
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