Smokeless 45-110

North of 56 · Post by **North of 56** » Sun May 13, 2007 4:24 pm

From the Shiloh web page, Please read!!
NOTE: We do not recommend that smokeless powder handloads be used in the large volume black powder cartridges of the 1870s. There have been reports of excessive pressures, even detonations, happening when too little smokeless powder is loaded in large-capacity cartridges. The big black powder rounds were meant to be loaded with blackpowder, and they perform better with blackpowder. Therefore if you desire to be a smokeless powder Sharps shooter, stay with those calibers for which smokeless powder ammunition is readily available.

And my warning!
Improper use of fillers may cause a ringed chamber, use of a wad over smokeless powder and leaving an airspace between the powder and bullet will cause a ringed chamber!!

Please read Kirk’s post!!
http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic ... highlight=

Now with all that info on all the bad things that can happen to your gun, why would I try smokeless in my 45-110?

Winter!!! It gets dam cold up here in Northern Alberta during hunting season! Last year during the whitetail rut in November, the temp hovered near -30! The cold weather destroyed the accuracy of my normally tack driving Shiloh Sporter #1, to the point that I stopped hunting with it and took out my 300 win mag.

I consulated many of you here on the Shiloh forms, I tried different lube and powder combos with no luck.

So I’ve gone on quest to find a winter smokeless load that I can use when the weather gets cold. I know the Black Powder Gods may strike me down, but I want to use my Shiloh this coming deer season. Now all that being said, I’m still looking for a miracle cold weather cure, If you have one, please let me know about it!

Let the adventure begin………..

My Lyman 48th Edition Reloader Handbook has several smokeless loads listed for the 45-110. After doing some research I decided to try Accurate Arms 5744. I sent off several e-mails to Accurate Arms, they were very helpful! Johan Loubser, Ballistician with
Western/Accurate Powders ( johan@ramshot.com ) was very helpful. He sent me the following info:

Special note on ACCURATE 5744 powder.
Accurate 5744 is a rather special and unique product.
It can best be described as a fast burning Rifle or slow burning Magnum handgun double base “hybrid” powder, having the typical chemical composition of handgun powders i.e. 20% NG – and the geometry of a typical extruded single perforated rifle powder.

Rifle applications:
This makes the powder very ignitable, as well as bulky, which makes it ideal for low loading density applications, such as reduced loads on bottle neck rifle calibers, and low performance “straight case” designs, such as the old “black powder” calibers i.e. 45-70 45-110 50-110 etc.
The powder is virtually insensitive to powder position, and there is no need for “fillers”. It will deliver consistent results at low performance levels. Although there will be some un-burnt powder (see paragraph below) the performance will remain consistent.
Due to it’s ignitability, any strength rifle primer can be used.
Although, this is a powder recommended for reduced/low performance loads, it cannot be completely efficient (clean burning) at very low Pressure/performance levels of <18000psi.
It still is a modern, high-density, smokeless powder, with limitations regarding complete combustion at very low chamber pressures. With nitro-cellulose based “Modern” powders, the burn rate and pressure are directly proportional.
This means that some level of un-burnt powder will be present, constituting the remainder of some of the powder granules. This cannot be improved with primers or crimp etc, the only way to eliminate this, is an increase in chamber-pressure.

Lyman’s load data is considerably higher than the data I received from Accurate Arms, but Lyman’s data for max loads works out perfectly with this info from Accurate Arms:

Method for calculating/determining a charge for loading with Accurate 5744 powder for RIFLE calibers at reduced levels:
We have a very simple method to determine a reduced load on any calibre using 5744 powder.
Determine the maximum charge per volume, by filling the case to the base of the seated bullet.
Multiply that value by x 0.40 (40%)
That will be a good safe, reduced load that will produce velocities of between 40 and 50% of a full power load.
One can then load up to 48% for maximum lead bullet loads.
If you want to obtain the maximum possible velocity and pressure with jacketed bullets, it would be between 60 and 65% of full case capacity

I decided to use the data from Lyman and slowly worked up to a Max load. The bullet I chose is a Barnes Triple Shock X- Bullet, 458 Dia, 450 gr flat base. Why?? Well except for it being copper and a hollow point, it looks like many of the cast bullets I have successfully used with Black Powder. I’ve had good success with them in my 300 mag.

My Max load shot wonderfully! Printing a 5 shot, 1.8” outside to outside group at 200 yards! I’ve fired 40 rounds and have experienced no signs of excessive pressure. Brass removes easily from my chamber. No more stretch in my brass than I get with Black powder. Results have been great! This only thing missing is the smoke.

I’m now waiting for cold weather and rutting Whitetails.

Darrin

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Sun May 13, 2007 5:46 pm

Have you considered shooting a Duplex load?

ironramrod · Post by **ironramrod** » Sun May 13, 2007 6:09 pm

Ray N. brings up a good point, if you're interested in seeing the smoke with the shot. Somebody recently posted that they had developed a duplex load that shot like a house afire in cold weather in Alaska I think, and had no fouling to deal with at all. Unfortunately, I can't even remember which shooting forum it was on, so hopefully that rifleman will chime in with some info.

I have shot my Goex Fg loads in the .45/110 in temps as low as -10 deg and they shot well with no problems, but I have to admit that -10 deg. is only cold; whereas, -30 deg and colder is in a entirely different league.

Regards

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Sun May 13, 2007 7:29 pm

IronRamRod: I was thinking not so much of the “smoke”, but that there would be no airspace in the case & very little – if any – residual fouling to deal w/….

North of 56 · Post by **North of 56** » Sun May 13, 2007 7:32 pm

Duplex loads? No I hadn’t thought of that? I have no experience with them. Can any help me with some load info? If anyone has any cold weather shooting tips, I’m all ears!

Thanks,
Darrin

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Sun May 13, 2007 7:51 pm

No.of56: I'll send you a PM.

powderburner · Post by **powderburner** » Sun May 13, 2007 7:54 pm

Why couldnt the cartridges stay in the shirt pocket prior to firing , unless you are jump shooting wouldnt you have time to load and shoot ? not a whole lot longer than cocking the piece.or carry the ctg wrapped in your hand heeping it warm ... and that way you would be so much closer to your rifle annd ammo

....... Dean

ole pizen slinger · Post by **ole pizen slinger** » Sun May 13, 2007 8:08 pm

Why not use a different cartridge. If you do not have one, order yourself another Shiloh in 45-70. I think this cartridge will do all you need and can be loaded as hot or hotter than a 45-110. Smokeless would not be a problem then and you would have another beautiful rifle to adore.

ole pizen slinger

ironramrod · Post by **ironramrod** » Sun May 13, 2007 8:20 pm

Ray N.,

You're absolutely right, and I need to apologize for the 1st sentence in the post I made. I was thinking exactly what you said, but I certainly didn't type that. In fact, re-reading what I said I can see it was really kinda dumb.

Sorry about that.

Regards

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Sun May 13, 2007 8:58 pm

IronRamRod; no need to apologize.

No.of 56: check your Pm’s!

IIRC, the issues w/ shooting BP in very cold conditions is the lack of humidity to help soften the BP fouling & dealing w/ a blow tube &/or damp patches??....

boge · Post by **boge** » Sun May 13, 2007 9:30 pm

What's the problem? Jeremiah Johnson only needed one shot to kill a griz! "Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another 'n!!"

North of 56 · Post by **North of 56** » Sun May 13, 2007 10:26 pm

Keeping bullets in my pocket, yes I tried that, but I rattle and still hunt most of the time, I keep usually keep one in the tube. If you take a shot, then let the barrel cool off, things get real ugly, even with warm ammo.

New gun,

can I give you wife’s cell phone number?

I had a hard enough time explaining why I needed that bull barrelled #3 that’s on the way. I have a Pedersoli in 45-70, but it’s just not the same!

I’m going to give the duplex a try. At least I have a safe, reliable alternative with the 5744.

Thanks for the help,
Darrin

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Mon May 14, 2007 9:04 pm

Northof56: sent you another PM!

cas · Post by **cas** » Mon May 14, 2007 11:02 pm

I wonder how crappy it would shoot if you seateds it flush with the case mouth (or there abouts to the needed depth) and used 45-70 data?

Personally... I would seat the right, get some Puff-lon and start with 45-90 smokeless data.

North of 56 · Post by **North of 56** » Tue May 15, 2007 7:04 am

Thanks for all the help!
Darrin