Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Do you have a shoot or special event coming up soon? Tell us here.

Moderators: Kirk, Lucinda

User avatar
Don McDowell
Posts: 6477
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:04 pm
Location: Ft. Laramie Wy
Contact:

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by Don McDowell » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:25 am

Bryan the 2018 silhouette results are still on the NRA web site.
Here's the numbers
BPCR iron 81 Scope 93
Levergun
Centerfire 160 , Pistol cartridge 166, small bore 171..
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?

semtav
Posts: 1194
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: Montana

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by semtav » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:35 am

Ok Don. I'll see if I can find anything.

Brent.
Since this is a business, ( maybe a nonprofit part of the NRA's, but still a business) what did the NRA do after the split to promote the newly separated BPTR ?. Did they pick consistent dates and promote the hell out of it. Did they address the problems that were plaging it before and remedy them. Did they actively find ways to attract new customers. Or did they just blame lack of business on their current customers.
Go look at what the PBR did when it split from PRCA. Now that's a successful business model.
Appears the NRA is using the Sears business model instead.

Hope I'm wrong.

DeadEye
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:38 pm
Location: The Flatlands of Canada

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by DeadEye » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:41 am

Brian and all the score sheets for BPTR are posted in this thread. From my count there were 25 for Mid Range and 33 for Creedmoor.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26101
"My heroes have always been cowboys and they still are it seems."

User avatar
Don McDowell
Posts: 6477
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:04 pm
Location: Ft. Laramie Wy
Contact:

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by Don McDowell » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:42 am

Raymond Hanson wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:23 am
All I have read all the post's on this thread and have a few things that all should be reminded of. First of all, Zack has every right to think of himself as a spokesman for our sport. We selected him and raised the funds to send him to NRA as our spokesman. He was enthusiastic to the point of passionate. But mostly he was willing. If he does not reflect the exact position of all concerned he does in fact represent the basic idea that things are not going well in our sport. Why else would we spend good money to send him to NRA headquarters to protest face to face with the Black Powder Committee? Second is the fact that we have voted in the BPTR competitors meeting repeatedly, over several years, that the majority would prefer the Nationals to be held later in the cooler part of the season. Also as a separate event from the sil. Nationals. Both sides of this issue can give it a rest! The NRA could care less how many times we vote on this or any other issue. They do and will continue to do what ever they want. Being asked for your opinion is a joke! Those of you talking numbers are not looking at the right numbers. Five million members belong to the NRA the last time I checked. Certainly more than 95% of those are NOT competitors in any NRA shooting discipline. They send in their dues every year while humming the National Anthem and quoting excerpts from the 2nd Amendment. They ask for NOTHING in return. If anyone criticizes the NRA these people wait in line to defend them no matter what the facts are. Meanwhile a few thousand competitors ask and expect something specific in return. That is where the NUMBERS really are. That is one of the great ironies of the times. Competitive shooters are now such a minority in the NRA as to be irrelevant. Raymond Hanson
Well said Ray.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?

BFD
Posts: 1657
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:36 pm

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by BFD » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:48 am

Brian,
They did exactly what they do to promote every other competition they adjudicate. Nothing. That isn't news now, not news then either. It as expected then as it is expected now. We don't like, we don't think it is right, but we damn well understand it and can count on it. It will not change. Why in the world would we expect them to suddenly make an exception for BPTR?

Ray, when you say "we" you mean the few people that attended the BPTR nationals that year. The vast majority of BPTR shooters were not even at the match, not even consulted, and, in fact, summarily ignored. What is consistently missed by the competitors at the annual meeting is that they are a minority of the people that actually shoot the game. It is the competitors that do NOT come to the match that aren't being heard. Yet THEY are the shooters you want and need to attend. So every year, a majority of an ever small minority make decisions that are not reflective of the participants in the sport. Until you guys understand that, you will continue to shrink.

User avatar
Don McDowell
Posts: 6477
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:04 pm
Location: Ft. Laramie Wy
Contact:

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by Don McDowell » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:56 am

DeadEye wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:41 am
Brian and all the score sheets for BPTR are posted in this thread. From my count there were 25 for Mid Range and 33 for Creedmoor.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26101
Paul what is very interesting with those numbers is given the dates, and at least 7 shooters known not to be there because of hunting season ( some of whom are known contenders for the championship) and one or two more that couldn't be there due to work schedules, then compare that number to the 2016 "combined match, and the argument to combine and increase attendance sort of starts to fall apart...
The real number to look at as far as hard core target rifle shooters is the "ironman" those numbers stay very static from 2009 when that was first implemented to the 2018 match.
I don't think the numbers thing is a very good argument. The entry fee's have jumped in the last few years from 110$ to 275$ , the awards have changed little from 2013 to present.. And when the entry fee's were 110$, the NRA sent out the match director, assistant match director , 3 RSO's on the line, a pit director and RSO's , and a statistical officer...Now at 275$ the match is purportedly put on by "volunteers" except for the stat officer the NRA sent out for the 18 match..
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?

Raymond Hanson
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:02 pm

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by Raymond Hanson » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:23 am

Brent Why should those that do not attend nor as a result vote be counted? I do not vote on nor do i suggest in any way how they should do things in High Power. Nor do I in Sil. with any rifle. Or any other venue except BPTR. If you want to be heard participate. How can it be otherwise? By your standards those of us who do, should get guidance from those of you who don't. Sounds like letting illegals having the right to vote! Raymond Hanson

DeadEye
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:38 pm
Location: The Flatlands of Canada

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by DeadEye » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:30 am

Don, I don't shoot either discipline so I have 'no comment' just posted the link. I remembered I had seen them somewhere. They are not on the NRA website yet.

Paul
"My heroes have always been cowboys and they still are it seems."

BFD
Posts: 1657
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:36 pm

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by BFD » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:04 am

Raymond Hanson wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:23 am
Brent Why should those that do not attend nor as a result vote be counted? I do not vote on nor do i suggest in any way how they should do things in High Power. Nor do I in Sil. with any rifle. Or any other venue except BPTR. If you want to be heard participate. How can it be otherwise? By your standards those of us who do, should get guidance from those of you who don't. Sounds like letting illegals having the right to vote! Raymond Hanson
Why? Because THOSE ARE THE SHOOTERS YOU NEED TO GROW THE MATCH. They are participants in BPTR, just not at nationals. If you want them to come to nationals, don't exclude them.

Equating it to highpower, or illegal aliens only tells me you are not listening and only interested in an argument. I'm not interested.

semtav
Posts: 1194
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: Montana

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by semtav » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:47 pm

DeadEye wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:41 am
Brian and all the score sheets for BPTR are posted in this thread. From my count there were 25 for Mid Range and 33 for Creedmoor.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26101
Thanks Paul. Would like to find the attendance for both venues now for their duration. No doubt a moot point tho.

Raymond Hanson
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:02 pm

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by Raymond Hanson » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:45 pm

All I looked up some of the historic numbers for sil. (iron sight only) and BPTR from 1998, 2008, and then 2018. Also Ironman from 2008 and then 2018. I will pass them along to you. 1998 Sil. 281 shooters. BPTR Position 37 shooters. BPTR Prone 29 shooters. Creedmoor 65 shooters. 2008 Sil. 204 shooters. Position 39 shooters. Prone 55 shooters. Creedmoor 76 shooters. 2018 Sil. 81 shooters. BPTR Position 23 shooters. Prone 25 shooters. Creedmoor 33 shooters. The Ironman in 2008 had 22 shooters. In 2018 it had 21 shooters.
When digesting these numbers there are a few things to remember. During all the heyday years of high attendance in sil. every effort was made to cater to those shooters. The Creedmoor event was held the weekend BEFORE the sil. or BPTR mid-range events with the hopes it would attract more shooters. Both the mid-range events were scheduled so they would cooperate with the "off" days on the sil. Nationals. The whole mid-range Prone event was created to try and entice more competitors to come over and participate in the BPTR Nationals. Trying to feed off of sil. attendance is NOT new to BPTR scheduling!
What does all this BS show. Mainly our sport is dying. Also SIl. attendance has fallen off considerably more than BPTR by %. Yet the Ironman attendance has remained almost unchanged. That is a result of separating the two venues. When combined you could not be an Ironman if you were shooting in sil.
I think that this latest attempt in increasing attendance will post a modest gain for the BPTR Creedmoor event next year. But that will not make up for a group of shooters that is getting older and lacking new shooters. We may as well brag about the old days and enjoy the good matches that are out there and not beat each other up trying to run a dead horse! Merry christmas Raymond Hanson

User avatar
Don McDowell
Posts: 6477
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:04 pm
Location: Ft. Laramie Wy
Contact:

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by Don McDowell » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:19 pm

Merry Christmas Raymond, see you and Margo in Phoenix.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?

40-65rl
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:44 am
Location: cheyenne, wy

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by 40-65rl » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:26 pm

Byers Colorado and Cheyenne WY are trying to keep this "Dead Horse" alive out West for a few more races. Byers has been shooting mid range and Creedmoor for many years, an excellent facility and great match management. Cheyenne is fitting into the summer months and using the expertise from the great folks at Byers and others to get going. The first ever Cheyenne mid range match last fall was well attended and folks seemed to have a good time. Mid Range matches and Creedmoor will be scheduled for 2018 and look for folks to show up to shoot. Cheyenne will be including .22 BPCR mid range on the Saturday before the "big bore" mid range prone matches. Hope shooting the .22 BPCR mid-range matches may increase interest in shooting the big bore mid range matches. Look for Byers and Cheyenne flyers in the near future when their clubs approve the requested schedules.
Dick

jackrabbit
Posts: 1276
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:04 pm
Location: Carpenter Wyoming

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by jackrabbit » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:41 am

Interesting discussion for sure. Brent and Ray both have some good points. The point I want to make is that the only dead horse around here is NRA Competitions. BPTR is suffering because the only organization that sanctions it is doing a crappy job. Non NRA affiliated shooting competitions are doing just fine. For example, 22 BPCR, gong matches, the Quigley, PRS, NRL, and the list goes on. In my opinion, the sooner NRA completely drops BPCR and BPTR, the sooner a private organization starts sanctioning it and things improve.

You all keep beating your dead horse, in the mean time, myself and a bunch of our friends will be going to good matches, shooting well, and thoroughly enjoying ourselves.
Merry Christmas,
Cody

45bpcr
Posts: 638
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 4:32 pm
Location: Live Free or Die = New Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Black Powder Target Rifle National Championships

Post by 45bpcr » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:14 pm

Sorry emoji users
crickets.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Live Free or Die, Death is not the worst of Evils

Post Reply