Smokeless Powder

Butch · Post by **Butch** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:27 pm

I am a big fan of the 45-70 and for the last couple of years looked at buying a Shiloh Hartford Model. With that being said I am not a big fan of using Blackpowder. Been there, done that and it is just not my cup of tea. I shoot a lot of 45-70 but it is all loaded with smokeless powder. Believe me I am no fan of the Hard kicking high pressure loads. Most of what I shoot the pressure runs around 18,000 to 22,000. I read a post where Kirk stated that the Shiloh will stand up next to the Ruger #1 in strength.

I am ready to order a Shiloh, but if I get one I will not be using Blackpowder. Kirk, anyone, thoughts? Thanks

Lee Stone · Post by **Lee Stone** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:13 pm

I am, of course, not Kirk. However, I am a devoted fan of Sharps (Shiloh Sharps in particular) and of using real gunpowder. However, that is because I happen to enjoy blackpowder. I think you would be depriving your self of a marvelous rifle if you did not get a Shiloh Sharps. Shoot in it what you want and what gives you pleasure. If blackpowder is not your thing, that is no one's business but yours. The Shiloh Sharps has a very strong action. Most of us use blackpowder because that is what we prefer to use, not what we have to use. So why not indulge yourself and go ahead and get what in my very biased opinion is the best rifle in the world, and then enjoy it the way you enjoy best.

Omaha Poke · Post by **Omaha Poke** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:15 pm

My first year shooting a Pedersoli 1874 at the Quigley, I used a smokeless load. 530 gr cast bullet backed up with 28.5 grs XMP 5744. It was a pretty accurate load. I have since switched to strictly BP, and my group size has tightened and have a lot more fun shooting. Smokeless works, however in these rifles it is my opinion that Black Powder works even better. Good Luck with whichever you choose to shoot. Randy

Rickd · Post by **Rickd** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:52 pm

Butch. There are a lot of people shooting Shiloh rifles using almost exclusively smokeless powder. 4198 and several other powders, including Vihtavouri. The load you develop depends on what your use will be. Hunting, target shooting, plinking. You don't need to shoot 540 grain bullets at 1,000 yard targets to have fun. Some people like to. Others hunt with 420 grain bullets, and shoot 50-100 yard targets. It's a beautiful, very well made rifle, with a great family business providing a unique, friendly and helpful customer support. This forum is but one example. Get the Shiloh, enjoy it's beauty, and shoot it the way you enjoy shooting. Have fun.

Post by **Kirk** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:06 am

Hi Butch, these guys have pretty well summed it up, their are a lot more customers burning smokeless in these guns than black. Do what ever makes you happy, and the gun will be happy to. Thanks Kirk

Lee Stone · Post by **Lee Stone** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:48 am

Kirk,

No one is in a position to know as well as you, but your statement that there are a lot more people shooting smokeless powder in Shiloh Sharps than gunpowder pretty well caught me by surprise.

Omak Cowboy · Post by **Omak Cowboy** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:07 am

Kirk's comment about smokeless begs a question of if we see a difference in performance between the two types of powder. Certainly velocity is going to go up, along with pressure but is there a range and accuracy difference between the two?
Omak

Lee Stone · Post by **Lee Stone** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:16 am

Omak,

Good question. I guess the only way I'll ever know is if someone else tells me. I have no plans to ever burn anything other than gunpowder in mine. I have no desire to burn smokeless powder in any of my rifles. But that is a matter of personal preference.

Like the old lady said when she kissed the calf, "It's just a matter of taste".

Butch · Post by **Butch** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:17 am

Thanks for the information. I have decided on the Hartford model, but I am still trying to figure out what custom additions I want. I do not think I will know that for sure until I hang up the telephone after placing the order.

Omak Cowboy · Post by **Omak Cowboy** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:14 am

Lee, that's why I asked the question as I agree with you and have no interest in burning smokeless in my rifle. Got lots of early 20th century stuff to do that in.
Seems to me the fun of having a Sharps is using original equipment.
Omak

Post by **Kirk** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:07 pm

Don't get me wrong guys, I don't shoot smokeless in mine either. Smokeless doesn't seem to hang together like black when you put the distance on it. I run a little test during our little Shiloh shoot we had a while back with the guys and gals in the shop. I knew everyone was going to buy factory ammo. One of the guys has learned how to load black and is doing quite well with it, and will not let smokeless get close to his gun. I had my old 45-70 creedmoore there along with black powder loads. At 2 and 3 hundred meters they were pretty much the same, but at 385 and 500 meters the guys in the shop shooting my gun with black hit more targets holding a group than they did when we cleaned the gun and they shot factory through it. I am not sure why this is, but it sure impressed the guys making these guns. I don't know how much better comparison one could do, unless it was possible to work up a smokeless load and start shooting at distance. There are quite a few guys at matches such as Quigley that are shooting smokeless, but very seldom does it win. Kirk

Lee Stone · Post by **Lee Stone** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:32 pm

To me, an important part of the charm and mystique of shooting these rifles is working up the load and shooting real gunpowder. And then the big cloud of white smoke, the puff of smoke when you blow tube, the smell of the smoke (I don't know, maybe I am perverted, but I LIKE that smell, I mean really like it), the whole thing. For me, shooting smokeless in one of these rifles would be like taking a trip to France and being alowed to drive the LeMans road course all alone so you could really do your thing and then driving it in a Buick. It would work, but would not be the real thing to me. Driving LeMans in a Porsche would be the real thing (and not one of those new silly looking Porsche SUV's either, yuk!).

And the same is true when I am shooting my two trap doors.

But this is what I like. Others should do what they like.

TJW · Post by **TJW** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:22 pm

Guys, I think MLV answered this question in his book. He stated that over the chrony smokless gave greater standard deviation in velosity, therefore, at longer ranges it showed up as a wider group. He also stated he has found little difference out to about 200 yds, as Kirk said. TJW

Lee Stone · Post by **Lee Stone** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:02 am

You know TJW, you are right. Now that you mention it I do remember Mike addressing that in his book.

I need to re-read that book. My first read through a book like that is primarily for enjoyment. The next several reads through it will be to try to learn something.

Rich Siegel · Post by **Rich Siegel** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:29 am

One of the great things with a Shiloh rifle action is that you can shoot both smokeless and black powder safely through the same rifle. In my #1 in 40/65, I shoot black powder and usually get 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards and 3" groups at 200 yds. If I get lazy, I'll switch to smokeless powder and get the same groups but without cleaning between shots and the ease of loading smokeless ammunition, not to mention the ease of cleaning afterward. Now as time has progressed, I really enjoy shooting duplex loads, big cloud of smoke but no cleaning between shots (or using a blow tube), same accuracy but still the dreaded clean up later.

When I decided to order another Shiloh, I chose the 50/70 cartridge because, with it's smaller case capacity, it is easy to work up a smokeless load but still a powerful cartridge when shooting black powder or a duplex load.

Great to have options.

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