Reloading Pressures

[Herschel]

I am sure this has been asked at some time, but I can't find it.
When reloading for 45/70's with smokeless powders and grooved bullets, the loading manual's
list 3 separate areas, one for Trapdoors, one for lever actions and Marlins, and one
for Ruger rifles.
I am not looking to work up and shoot .458 Lott loads, but wanted to know what the safe range
was when loading for my Sharp's 45/70's. I will be shooting bullets in the 405gr. to 550gr.
range, both grooved and paper patched.
Could you tell me what cup pressure limits my Shiloh will handle, and the safe range
to stay in for repetitive shooting, without causing damage to my rifle.
Thank you very much.

[Lumpy Grits]

Welcome
You can fill the barrel to the muzzle with BLACK POWDER, and never hurt a Shiloh made Sharps.
With smokeless, you can load to Ruger #1 levels.
Gary

[Herschel]

Thanks fellows for the information, I really do appreciate it. Right now I will be loading only smokeless powder loads for my 45/70.
I know this is a sin to those purist on the dark side, but I am familiar with smokeless loading and am more comfortable with it right now.
I will surely get into black powder loading's later.
I am not one for shooting punishing max reloads, but I really had no idea of what kind of pressures a Shiloh receiver would handle.
I was aware that Shiloh only warranty's shooting smokeless powders in certain calibers which are commercially loaded.
Grits added that the Shiloh will handle Ruger #1 pressures, which to me says the Shiloh has a very strong receiver.
In my Lyman 47th. reloading book, smokeless pressures range from 13,000 cup, to 39,000 cup, with certain powders and bullets.
I do not fancy shooting full power loads, but just wanted to know how strong the Shiloh receivers are and what they would safely handle.
Many thanks again.

[Lumpy Grits]

FYI, the recoil from BP, is not the sharp kick you will have from smokeless.
Gary

[battleship gunner]

I use a PJ mould 535 gr. bullet with 42 grs. of 4198 for my best accuracy, the velocity is 1,745 fps which is quite fast and the pressure is probably what the loading data says. It's quite accurate and the recoil is stiff. I have tried 3031, 4895, accurate 5744, and a couple others but 4198 works the best for me. At 100 yds. I can get 1 1/2" groups because I'm not as good as the rifle.

Just sayin.

My long distance provider is Sharps.

[Clarence]

Battleship Gunner,

If you'd throttle your load back to bp velocities, using bp, I'll bet you'd enjoy shooting your Sharps a lot more. I wouldn't want to be behind one shooting a 535 gr. bullet at ~1750 fps.

Clarence

[battleship gunner]

Clarence,
I like shooting my sharps just fine and have for going on 25 years. Mine seems to do better with that velocity not so when I slowed it down.

My long distance provider is Sharps.

[Woodsmoke]

Gunner, I'm curious as to what alloy you are shooting and do you have any leading issues at that speed?

[battleship gunner]

No leading problems, I use Lyman #2 for both the .45 and .50. The .50 is a 650gr. moving at 1,425 fps. Both are accurate as hell. The accuracy dropped off when I went faster( yes I said faster ) or slower. The rifles can handle the pressure if you can. Hope this helps.

My long distance provider is sharps.

[desert deuce]

Been there, done that.........with a Shiloh Business Rifle in 45-70............for hunting big game, Elk to Kudu sized.

Had a box full of bullet moulds, Saeco, Lyman, Hoke, etc..........tried, Rem, Win & Fed Brass.

Tried five or six alloys, primers, powders, lubes, sized-to diameters etc.........

Not necessary to pen a Magnus Opus, results were Fed Mag Primer, Rem Brass, IMR-3031 Powder at moderate speeds at or under 1300 FPS using 1x30 alloy or softer, Lyman Moly Lube, about one thousandths over groove with a Lyman 457193 bullet crimped just at the front of the front driving band.

I do not recommend using anything harder than 1x30 for hunting medium to big game. Trust me on this one unless you can break the spine at the shoulder 100 out of 100 times at whatever distance you have to shoot, OR, you are a world famous bush tracker that has NEVER lost a wounded animal and has successfully lead at least 2,000 followups, prior to pulling the trigger.

[lrb]

I am loading 47 gr. IMR 3031, CCI mag primer pushing a tightly crimped Remington 405 jacketed bullet in a heavy barreled Shiloh. Using the sporting tang sight and bench rest, it will consistently group sub MOA at a hundred yards.

[Lumpy Grits]

I am loading 47 gr. IMR 3031, CCI mag primer pushing a tightly crimped Remington 405 jacketed bullet in a heavy barreled Shiloh. Using the sporting tang sight and bench rest, it will consistently group sub MOA at a hundred yards.

Do you have some of the targets we could see?
Gary

[lrb]

I am loading 47 gr. IMR 3031, CCI mag primer pushing a tightly crimped Remington 405 jacketed bullet in a heavy barreled Shiloh. Using the sporting tang sight and bench rest, it will consistently group sub MOA at a hundred yards.

Do you have some of the targets we could see?
Gary

I don't know if I do or not, but I'll look. I don't shoot competition so I seldom saved targets. A friend has a Pedersoli Billy Dixon model that does almost as well with that load, plus two grains of powder. He usually gets 1 1/4" to 1 3/8" groups, and on one occasion 1". The cases are fire formed Winchester and sized just enough to secure the bullet well, then tight crimped with a Lee factory crimp die. My rifle is a Shiloh Sporter #3 with the Shiloh 30" heavy barrel, delivered around 1992, and has the B serial #. The forearm is glass bedded at the screw mounts and relieved of contact with the barrel and receiver. Lock and triggers are polished and adjusted to give about a 4 oz let off set, and 2lbs unset. It originally had problems with grouping, but I returned it and the breech block unit was replaced. I was told they could find no problem other than the breech face being .003 off, but after it came home with the new breech block, it shot super well with that load. I live on a river in FL, and used to be able to hit empty powder cans consistently across the river which measured out by string and later laser, to be 230 yards, give or take a tad. Gallon jugs of water were just too easy. Due to aging and failing eyesight, I cannot shoot that well anymore.

[XTR]

Herschel, I've got two 45-70s, one is a Sharps the other is a new production Winchester 1885. I spent a lot of range time experimenting with cast bullets and smokeless. In the end I abandoned the effort, but I'll pass some things along.

The 45-70 case is designed for BP. The volume is huge if you are shooting smokeless at anything on this continent other than grisly or polar bears. There are a few powders that work ok. Look for stuff with burn rates in the vicinity of Rx7, IMR3031, or 4198. I shoot a lot of Varget in target rifles, tried it in the 45-70 but it's just too slow and the pressure never gets to where it wants to be. Looked like someone poured a 1/4 teaspoon of unburned powder in the tube after each shot.

Neck tension, more is bad. Most commercial dies are going to over size your brass and leave you with huge, I mean like 6 or 8 thousandths neck tension. It's not what you want. When you seat a bullet and you can see the bulge at the base in the case you have too much neck tension.

Velocity, I was never able to get cast bullets from a big bore to group at velocities much over 1400FPS. If you find something that you can put gas checks on it may help, but even with gas checks on some Ranch Dog 350s I was not able to get them to group at higher velocities.

Recoil, get ready, this is not like the other hunting rifles you have. Accelerating a 350 grain or heavier slug to high velocity is pure physics. I've pushed 405s to 2000 FPS w/o a shoulder pad, and I didn't shoot again for a couple of weeks until the bruises went away. I got over that idea pretty quickly.

What I finally settled on was that my Sharps is a BP rifle shooting target bullets, and my 1885 is a hunting rifle shooting smokeless with 405 Remington jacketed bullets. My current hunting load is 50gr of 3031. It is stout but not punishing.

Summary, This cartridge was designed for BP. It has a very high capacity for smokeless, you can get carried away very quickly. You need to choose a powder that will give good performance in a case with less than 100% fill. Cast bullets just don't provide accuracy at higher velocities. Shooting a heavy recoiling rifle (heavier than BP levels) is not enjoyable, not only are you getting punished but form behind the rifle is very difficult to maintain so the groups open up. There is nothing in the eastern US that needs those kind of levels, my 405s will shoot through a white tail from any direction. Lastly, for real life in the woods shooting if you think of your 45-70 as an inside of 200 yards gun you'll be fine. (I carry mine when I know the shots will be under 150).

All of the above is either my experience or my opinion. As always yours may vary.

[jackrabbit]

I always have to chuckle when I think about my early 45-70 reloading experience. I bought a 1895 Marlin Cowboy, put a marbles tang sight on it and bought several boxes of cowboy action shells. Recoil wasn't too bad and I got it sighted in out to about 250 yards using the buckhorns for close stuff and the tang sight for out farther. I really enjoyed the rifle.

Later I was getting ready to go elk hunting and figured I needed some hotter loads. We were headed to grizzly country so I ordered up some stuff to make some "bear loads." Digging through reloading manuals, I found one that I thought was about as hot as I dare. I loaded up three rounds to test fire before I made a whole bunch. I have the luxury of shooting off of my front porch, so I stepped out onto the porch in my slippers and comfy pants, slipped one into the chamber, flipped up the tang sight, took careful aim, and touched her off. Holy Crap! I thought I had just been hit my a meteorite! It kicked so hard, the forened was ripped from hand as the barrel elevated. The tang sight was crammed into my eyeball and blacked and swelled it up. The recoil made me take several steps back, nearly losing my balance and somehow dropping the rifle in the confusion. My shoulder looked as if I had been kicked my a draft horse with a shoe on. Needless to say, I took the other two rounds back in and pulled the bullets.

405's at around 1250 are plenty for me. I have killed multiple deer, elk, and antelope with it with good results. Now that I have discovered the Holy Black, I have no interest in messing with the smokeless anymore.
Take care, Cody