Early MT Question
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Early MT Question
I have in my collection a 6000 range # Montana rifle. The receiver is marked "Shiloh Sharps Big Timber MT" but the barrel is marked "Old Reliable" and C. Sharps Arms. Was the barrel replaced or is this the early Big Timber markings? Thanks
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Re: Early MT Question
Early Big Timber markings. I have one in the high 7000 range that is marked similarly except no C. Sharps-the separation had already occurred.
Clarence
Clarence
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Re: Early MT Question
Years ago I owned two rifles marked "Old Reliable" and if I remember correctly they also were marked "Shiloh".
I sold them before the internet made sites like this possible, and when later I learned about C. Sharps and Shiloh I just assumed I was
mistaken about the "Shiloh" marking. Sounds like there was only one company making the guns originally?
Anyone care to enlighten me about the connection between the two outfits, and between Shoffstall and Droge?
Thanks in advance.
Loophole
I sold them before the internet made sites like this possible, and when later I learned about C. Sharps and Shiloh I just assumed I was
mistaken about the "Shiloh" marking. Sounds like there was only one company making the guns originally?
Anyone care to enlighten me about the connection between the two outfits, and between Shoffstall and Droge?
Thanks in advance.
Loophole
If at first you don't secede, try, try again.
- Lumpy Grits
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Re: Early MT Question
Earliest guns were made in Farmingdale, New Dork. Wolfe Droege owner of Shiloh moved his operation to Big Timber, Montana in the early 80's He built the guns and C Sharps (John Schoftstall) sold them. They did not want to do things the same way so they split apart. These guns were marked Shiloh Rifle Manufacturing , Big Timber, Mt on the outside left rec wall, on the barrel They were marked C. Sharps and the (Old Reliable) trade mark. My LR Express is so marked it's in the 70xx range made in Nov ,1985? My Saddle rifle has the same rec marking and the barrel says Shiloh on the top flat as well as the (old Reliable ) tm this gun was made in late 1987 serial 79xx and chambered for the 40-2.1" BN. Not to long after this a lawsuit settled who would retain the (Old Reliable ) tm which went to C. Sharps. Both companies went their own ways and build there own rifles. The Bryans bought out Wolfe Droege in 90 and the rest is history. Bryan guns all have a B prefix or suffix and the quality is much better than wolfe guns (fit and finish) . The freebored chambers stopped in the late 80's due to MLV's influence on the Wolfe guns. Once the freebored chambers went away Shilohs became regular top contenders at the BPCR silh matches you all can thank big Mike for that. Once the Shilohs started being built by the Bryans they became world class firearms and at time a 5+ year backlog because of there quality and a little Hollywood help didn't hurt either. bobw
bobw
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Re: Early MT Question
Pardon my ignorance but I have 2 questions that I'd like someone to answer. #1 what exactly is free bore and what does having it or not do? #2 When in the late 80's did that change ( what month and year ).
Thanks guys for the education.
Frank
My long distance provider is Sharps.
Thanks guys for the education.
Frank
My long distance provider is Sharps.
- powderburner
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Re: Early MT Question
when I got my first rifle Schofstall asked if I wanted a pp chamber , when I said yes he asked how long a bullet I was going to shoot and cut it accordingly... my old barrel has 3/4 inch, I also have a farmingdale sharps with no freebore, ..so ... there isnt a specific date and time, its wheather the owner wanted it or not, some have it some dont,
Dean Becker
only one gun and they are 74 s
3rd asst. flunky,high desert chapter F.E.S.
MYWEIGH scale merchant
reclining member of O-G-A-N-T
only one gun and they are 74 s
3rd asst. flunky,high desert chapter F.E.S.
MYWEIGH scale merchant
reclining member of O-G-A-N-T
- J.B.
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Re: Early MT Question
[quote="battleship gunner"]Pardon my ignorance but I have 2 questions that I'd like someone to answer. #1 what exactly is free bore and what does having it or not do? #2 When in the late 80's did that change ( what month and year ).
... B.G. .. my understanding of free bore is a portion of the barrel directly in front of the chamber end and before the lead commences into the rifling. Effectively an unrifled portion of the barrel between the chamber end and the rifling commencing and would expect it to be groove diameter. This is very much a lay mans description though and I'm sure either Kirk or one of the more experienced hands can explain it a little better. I have a friend here with a Farmingdale rifle which has a very visible free bore and looks to the naked eye to be in the range of 1/2" ! He shoots his rifle very well but it took some time to get there with load development. Its a 45/70 military musket with double sets.
That's a lot of 'unsupported' barrel for a bullet to be travelling along before engaging the rifling and I 'believe' that is where the accuracy, fouling and leading issues come into play. How it affects pp I've no idea. From what I've read here and in some publications, it appears most original Sharps had virtually no free bore, much like the current Shilohs. Lead angles were more shallow though. Hope this helps ( and I havent stood on any toes on the way )..
... B.G. .. my understanding of free bore is a portion of the barrel directly in front of the chamber end and before the lead commences into the rifling. Effectively an unrifled portion of the barrel between the chamber end and the rifling commencing and would expect it to be groove diameter. This is very much a lay mans description though and I'm sure either Kirk or one of the more experienced hands can explain it a little better. I have a friend here with a Farmingdale rifle which has a very visible free bore and looks to the naked eye to be in the range of 1/2" ! He shoots his rifle very well but it took some time to get there with load development. Its a 45/70 military musket with double sets.
That's a lot of 'unsupported' barrel for a bullet to be travelling along before engaging the rifling and I 'believe' that is where the accuracy, fouling and leading issues come into play. How it affects pp I've no idea. From what I've read here and in some publications, it appears most original Sharps had virtually no free bore, much like the current Shilohs. Lead angles were more shallow though. Hope this helps ( and I havent stood on any toes on the way )..
"an experimental weapon..with experimental ammunition ? ...Lets experiment "
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Re: Early MT Question
Thank you both for the info I now understand the term. I still don't know how it effects accuracy or if it does, but as stated you may have to work at it to get there.
Frank
My long distances provider is Sharps.
Frank
My long distances provider is Sharps.
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Re: Early MT Question
Powder burner and JB for the most part hit it. Freebore doesn't have to be bad but sure doesn't help when the freebored part is greater than groove dia. My 50-3 1/4" has 3/8" of freebore so I patch to groove dia. and seat out to just touch the lands. Naturally the bullet will start to slug up to fit the freebored part then is changed again as it enters the barrel. With no freebore and patching to bore dia. your bullet is just about completely in the rifling at firing with only an 1/8" to maybe 2/10 in the case. Not to say you can't get good results accuracy wise by patching to groove dia. that's the way the Brits have allways done it. As does Martinibelgian on this forum and Montana Charlie. Patching to groove unless freebored requires your patched bullet to be seated deeper in the case cutting down your case capacity maybe more than you want. All the original Sharps ammo that is paper patched was done to bore dia. and yes most of the chambers were made to use patched to bore dia bullets, the exception of course are the 50-70 and 45-70 which were cut larger to be able to use gov't greasers as well. One only has to look at the bullet lists in the sharps catalog to see most were loaded with paper patched bullets and grease grooves were very few.
You would have to ask Kirk how many older Shiloh's were rebarreled by Shiloh that had freebore people couldn't get to work. I've heard their were many. bobw
You would have to ask Kirk how many older Shiloh's were rebarreled by Shiloh that had freebore people couldn't get to work. I've heard their were many. bobw
bobw