50 twist rates

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jackrabbit
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Re: 50 twist rates

Post by jackrabbit »

SharpsShooter2B wrote: but 700grns with 100grs bp could be shot all day.
Andy

Blah, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha!!!! 9.5 pound rifle!! Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha!! Someone should have put that in the joke column!
Dennis Armistead
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Re: 50 twist rates

Post by Dennis Armistead »

jackrabbit wrote:
SharpsShooter2B wrote: but 700grns with 100grs bp could be shot all day.
Andy

Blah, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha!!!! 9.5 pound rifle!! Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha!! Someone should have put that in the joke column!
My 50 2 1/2 weighs 23 lbs and still has some torque to it, I can't imagine shooting a 9 1/2 lb 50 2 1/2 very long without blood dripping down my lip. Just a thought.
Dennis
Experience trumps intelligence every time.
jackrabbit
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Location: Carpenter Wyoming

Re: 50 twist rates

Post by jackrabbit »

In my relatively short BPCR career, I have already run into several guys insist that recoil does not bother them. They shoot 416's and 375's all day long for fun they say. Then they come to a match, shoot horribly because they flinch like nobody's business, then blame their gun or load. There is just one hell of a difference between letting 10 or 20 big rounds fly offhand and laying out prone and shooting 40 or 60 rounds for score with sighters on top and then getting up the next day and doing it again. Very, very few people have the mental skills required to handle a hard recoiling rifle for this kind of shooting. Even if you can handle it mentally, what fun is it getting the crap pounded out of you all weekend? It is a lot more fun to shoot a gun that does not hurt you.
take care, Cody
Todd Birch
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Re: 50 twist rates

Post by Todd Birch »

Jackrabbit - thanks for that!

Locally there is a belief that moose cannot be taken with anything less than a .338. I point out that two moose I've taken fell to my '86 shooting a BP equivalent smokeless load under my 420 gr RNFP's. One shot kills.

We used to have "Hunting Rifle" matches that required hunting ammunition you would use in the field. My 45-70 loads were challenged (because I wasn't being pounded by recoil) after I won a few times, shooting at 50-100-150-200 metres, five shots per distance. You could sit (my favourite position) or kneel past 100. Duck soup.

I switched to my .308 and won again with top loaded handloads. Then I won again with my M1 (my largest 6 pt. Mule Deer fell to this rifle) and they outlawed "unsporterized" military rifles. That effectively ruled out my Shiloh Military Rifle which was my next choice.

Hell, my wife has even won with her .243 in 'sudden death' off hand shoot offs against the big boys at 200-300 m on steel, but eventually they upped the calibre to .25 and later 6.5 to discourage her. Think we need better playmates? The match eventually died a natural death as the rules changed with the wind.

The Big Boys shooting .338's were not covering themselves in glory by the end of these matches. Their scores on paper were dismal, embarrassingly so. But these same guys will look you in the eye and say - "Yeah, I shoot all my game at 400-450 yards." Maybe so, a moose is not exactly hard to miss, but it's not about hitting it, but dropping it before it dies in an inaccessible place.
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
SharpsShooter2B
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Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:48 am

Re: 50 twist rates

Post by SharpsShooter2B »

[quote="Kurt"]Andy.

The .50-2.5 with a 1/22 ROT will drive a 700 gr bullet well past 1300 fps. to make pit safety. Ask Jim Kidwell if he will allow it at the Nationals.
I shot the .50-2.5 for many years at gong matches past 1000 yards and it does that job really well at the extended ranges if you can tolerate the recoil and control the rifle. I placed 13th in 09 and 14th 2010 at the Q using the .50 in some pretty tough winds.

Thank you so much for responding!!
Of course the 1/22 ROT works in pretty tough winds!! At 1000 yrds. a 480 or 500 grn out of a 1/36" twist at 1400 fps will drift around in variable cross winds 60 PERCENT more than a 680 or 700 grn out of a 1/22" at 1200 fps. (19" for every 11.75"). No sharpshooter, with the information available at the firing line can read variable wind enough to compete with a 60 percent handicap.
You notice I compared the 1/22" and 1200 fps to the 1/36" at 1400 fps? That's because the 500 grn requires 1400 fps to be as pit safe as the 700 grn at 1200.

So my question is do range masters understand ballistic coefficient or do they require a 680 grn out of a 1/22" to have a muzzle velocity above 1200? If, as you mention in your post,"driving a 700 gr bullet well past 1300 fps" is required for pit safety, the 700 gr bullet would suffer a 14 percent increase in wind drift (at 1400 fps).
Is 1400 fps legal (pit safe) with a 5o cal 500 gr? If so then a 700 should be allowed at 1200 fps!!!

Thank you
Dennis Armistead
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Re: 50 twist rates

Post by Dennis Armistead »

Sharpshooter,
I would think the "510 and up" rule would apply to most long range matches.
Dennis
Experience trumps intelligence every time.
SharpsShooter2B
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:48 am

Re: 50 twist rates

Post by SharpsShooter2B »

Dennis Armistead wrote:Sharpshooter,
I would think the "510 and up" rule would apply to most long range matches.
Dennis
Thank you Dennis.
May your crosswinds be favorable.

Andy.
Kurt
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Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: 50 twist rates

Post by Kurt »

SharpsShooter2B wrote:
Kurt wrote:Andy.

So my question is do range masters understand ballistic coefficient or do they require a 680 grn out of a 1/22" to have a muzzle velocity above 1200? If, as you mention in your post,"driving a 700 gr bullet well past 1300 fps" is required for pit safety, the 700 gr bullet would suffer a 14 percent increase in wind drift (at 1400 fps).
Is 1400 fps legal (pit safe) with a 5o cal 500 gr? If so then a 700 should be allowed at 1200 fps!!!

Thank you
Andy.

I cant answer that question. I'm sure range masters have shot enough to have an idea what BC is to an extend. In a sanctioned match they have to go by the rules set up so they go by what the committee has set.

I haven't shot my .50-2.5 in a match since 2010. I have shot it now and then just busting bowling pins to empty the loaded cases I have left over since 2010. I tried to keep my velocity as close to 1280 fps and that was using 110 gr of 2F Goex Express with the 715 gr bullet with 1/30 alloy. That was the load that shot well in my Rough Rider Shiloh.
At one Quigley we had a stiff full factor 35 mph plus wind and we where on the 800 yard buff and after the relay we where talking about how much wind we had cranked in. I still remember that I had 21 points on my MVA and it has a 600 yard no wind zero and I was holding on white and I stayed on the iron. A couple guys said I had all the left and holding on his nose and had some drift off. One said I has holding about a foot left. Their rifle calibers where .45-110 and 90's.
I have no idea what a 500gr .50 cal bullet would do. I have swaged some in that weight range to send some to a friend so he could test some from 430 gr to I think 550 before he ordered a mould. I shot some of those here at home at 138 yards and I might just as well have used a sling shot and done a better job hitting the paper because they where all over the place and probably some hit backwards from the look of the holes.
But like I said, the .50 is not for every body if they cant control it.

Kurt
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
SharpsShooter2B
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Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:48 am

Re: 50 twist rates

Post by SharpsShooter2B »

Kurt

You said "I can't answer that question" but the effort you put into answering was enough..
Thank you.
Of course range masters must go by the rules; then, even if minimum velocities are higher than necessary, everyone has the same handicap
as far as unnecessary wind drift if everyone is shooting the same caliber. The problem is that a .50 cal is innately better at long range than a .45 cal, just as a .75 cal with a ballistic coefficient of 1.00 (the Krupp standard bullet) is better than a .50 cal.
So if the RULES don't allow higher caliber rounds to achieve their natural performance then the rules are wrong.(imho)

I am impressed with your performance with the .50-2.5. If you drop your velocity to just below 1200 fps, the .45-110's won't have a chance, even if shooting 570 grain bullets!!!!

As far as controlling the .50, you could easily shoot 100 rounds of .577 cal 610 grain bullets in front of 167 grains of 1F out of a 7.5 lb modified Snyder carbine. I did at 17 yrs old in college at 140 lbs 5' 11"; there is no doubt that most anyone on this forum could do the same with a smile on their face asking for another 100 rounds (though NOT prone :D .

Thank you again, Kurt, for your considered opinion.
John in PA
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Re: 50 twist rates

Post by John in PA »

I have a .50-70 Military on the way, due to arrive tomorrow. What are the default twist, bore, and groove dimensions for Shilohs in this caliber and configuration? Original .50-70 Govt. was a .515" groove diameter, SRC was .509", many modern rifles are .512" What does Shiloh currently use?
John Wells in PA

Buncha Shiloh's
Kurt
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: 50 twist rates

Post by Kurt »

:D Andy when I go to the Quigley and the Big Hill at Baker I take 400 rounds for each rifle I take. More for the .44-100 and the .44-75. Last year I took 1500 rounds and ran out to shoot the match at Baker. I usually take loading equipment so I can reload if I run out of ammo.
At the Quigley it's not unusual for me to shoot 400 of the .50-2.5 in three days or less and have to reload to shoot the match. This is not counting the .44-2.5 Sharps BN and the .45-2.5. I know the Jack Rabbit will laugh :lol: :lol: so I will laugh first :lol: :lol: When I drive 19 hours to go to a match I shoot and have fun.
Here is a bucket full of dirty brass I didn't get cleaned up after the shoots. :D
:D I weigh more then 140 lbs :D but you at 140 lbs have the advantage. It takes less weight that has to get pushed by recoil so the felt recoil should be less :D

Hey have fun!! that is what it's all about.

Kurt

Image
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
jackrabbit
Posts: 1792
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:04 pm
Location: Carpenter Wyoming

Re: 50 twist rates

Post by jackrabbit »

Kurt wrote:
Hey have fun!! that is what it's all about.

Kurt
I agree Kurt! I hope to meet you one day and get to visit in person,
take care, Cody
Kurt
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
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Re: 50 twist rates

Post by Kurt »

Cody your shoot is on my list for this summer. I hope the loggers are out of the Medicine Bow by summer. It was kinda dusty in there last year. I want to do some fishing.
Don said fishing is good there.

Kurt
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
SharpsShooter2B
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Re: 50 twist rates

Post by SharpsShooter2B »

Kurt

Thank you for your polite pushback to my EXAGGERATED dismissal of the importance of recoil. I could not shoot the number of rounds you do at competition without a sore shoulder and EXAGGERATED flinching.
The little point I was trying to make is that shooting a .50-2 1/2 with a 700 grain bullet at 1200 fps or so in a 12 lb rifle is equivalent to shooting a 12 gauge 7.5 lb skeet shotgun which 12 yr old boys and my 100 lb lady friend can do for 4 rounds of skeet (100 rounds). Of course shooting offhand is easy for a few rounds with 4 times the recl of your .50-90 (like big bore black powder - 4 bore- etc).

But as you said so well! "Hey have fun!! that is what it's all about.
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