50-70 Twist (overstabilization, etc.)

[bryany]

at what distance?

Most of us that get worked up about this topic shoot out to 1000 yards in one form or another. Faster twist, bigger bullet, higher MV all seem to generate more hits on target. There have been some folks shooting 50's in these games with success but they were shooting 50-90, faster twist than 1-36, and bullets in the 600+gr. class.

Bryan

[BFD]

It is surprising to me that the Tollefson advocates haven't gone the .50-90 route. I'm sure they would be very successful. The only advantage of the heavier gun is to be able to shoot bigger, heavier bullets.

[bryany]

The heavy gun does a good job of being very "still" on the sticks as the shot is fired. The hard part is that you still have to position the rifle back in place before the next shot. At the end of the day, it's still a workout.

A bigger cartridge would likely just make more work in picking up and re positioning the rifle with no real gain. A better solution might be to go smaller in a heavy gun. A 20 lb. 38 or40 cal of some kind might not even recoil out of position.

Bryan

[BFD]

The heavy gun does a good job of being very "still" on the sticks as the shot is fired. The hard part is that you still have to position the rifle back in place before the next shot. At the end of the day, it's still a workout.

A bigger cartridge would likely just make more work in picking up and re positioning the rifle with no real gain. A better solution might be to go smaller in a heavy gun. A 20 lb. 38 or40 cal of some kind might not even recoil out of position.

Bryan

I've never been impressed by the Tollefson scores, and they all shoot .45s as far as I know, so it seems they do not take full advantage of the weight issue and, like you say, the tradeoff in handling the heavier gun just doesn't materialize. The gun would be just as heavy (or a shade lighter actually) in the larger caliber and shooting a 700 gr bullet, or something like that, would certainly have advantages at 1000. I don't think the lighter calibers will overcome their wind issues and they still recoil out of position, even .22s do that. Besides, wiping, reloading and looking in the scope takes one out of position anyway.

But until someone tries them, it's just internet prognosticating, and I am not interested in doing the experiments myself.

[bryany]

I've shot better scores with my regular LR rifle than my heavy 45. I've also shot it about 10 times as much. I also have a 40-70 in a 15+ lb rifle that shoots well. I've shot it the last couple of years at gong matches with encouraging results.

Unless we have someone campaign a Tollofson gun with dominating results, it will be just another minor classification in the grand scheme of things.

Bryan

[BFD]

I've shot better scores with my regular LR rifle than my heavy 45. I've also shot it about 10 times as much. I also have a 40-70 in a 15+ lb rifle that shoots well. I've shot it the last couple of years at gong matches with encouraging results.

Unless we have someone campaign a Tollofson gun with dominating results, it will be just another minor classification in the grand scheme of things.

Bryan

A lot of someones. If the rules for the general classification were changed from the 15 lbs weight limit to 25# or unlimited, I wouldn't really care, but I bet we would see a few Big 50s out there again. They might take over the game I suppose.

[bryany]

I don't know, most of us got our butts kicked in Phoenix by a couple of 45-70's recently. The big 50 do some things well but they take a lot of effort to manage.

[BFD]

I don't know, most of us got our butts kicked in Phoenix by a couple of 45-70's recently. The big 50 do some things well but they take a lot of effort to manage.

That would be interesting to see. I'll stick with my .45-70s, but I'd pay attention if a good shooter built a .50-90 Tollefson.

[Kurt]

A couple years ago I had Kirk rebarrel one of my .44-2.6 BN's with a heavy Krieger 1.3"X 35" round 17 twist .44-100 (2.6) for the Tollofson class. The rifle is very accurate but shooting it for a couple years I just don't like the weight. Recoil is straight back, I never notice any muzzle jump just a very mild straight back push shooting a 485 to 510 gr bullet. When I find a barrel wrench or get back and see Kirk I will pull that barrel and put the original barrel back on this rifle. By average the original 19 ROT .44-90bn shot better.
As far as a fast twist 1/22 .50-2.5 (90) yes it is a hard caliber to control shooting 110 gr load of 2 and 3F powder with a 720 gr bullet. If you don't hold a tight grip the left hand ROT will give you a blue spot on your jaw bone if your right handed I don't shoot it to often anymore at age 75 but I take it along for the gong shoots because when conditions get rough I reach for the .50. There is nothing in my safe that will out shoot it when conditions are rough.
Mine weighs 12.14 # this might be more then most shooters would be comfortable with shooting it but get it up in the high Tollofson weight class I don't a .45 could better it.

[BullShop]

This thread has been interesting but still leaves a question I have unanswered. I am considering a 50 cal 2.4" chamber to fire 600 to 700 gn bullets for extreme range shooting.
My question is in regard to rotational velocity and its effect on point on bullet flight. By point on bullet flight I mean the bullet axis staying in line with the trajectory arc.
As I understand it with the Chetek shooting systems they strike a balance of rifling twist rate with precise bullet length to achieve point on flight at the extreme ranges they may be used at.
Also reading the Sandy Hook trials with the 45-2.1, 45-2.4, and 577-450 Martini I see that point on bullet flight was achieved with the 1/22" twist in 45 cal with the 500gn gov bullet at initial velocities of about 1300 fps. There is a reference in the data that mentions digging the bullets from the ground fired to 3200 yards and the bullets had entered the ground at a very steep angle point on and penetrated to 9" of earth. If the bullet axis had not stayed in line with the trajectory arc the bullets would have made belly landings. In those trials I also find it quite interesting that even though the greater volume of the 577-450 case allowed a higher initial velocity and being fired at the same angle of trajectory the bullets from the 577-450 were falling shorter due I believe to the greater lag time of the higher velocity round.
In regard to this extreme range shooting my question is will excessive rotational velocity cause a bullet fired at long range to maintain its nose high attitude when launched at a fairly high trajectory angle throughout the bullets flight? If yes the greater exposed surface area will cause much higher atmospheric drag and so be far more effected by wind especially head wind and because of the increased frontal area exposure will lower the bullet BC causing increased lag time and so increase all atmospheric effects on the bullets flight path. If this is the case as with the modern Chetek system there will be and optimal rotational velocity for any given bullet length (not weight) at the maximum range it will be used for.

[boge]

Looks like SharpsShooter2B has registered under a new name.

[BullShop]

Looks like SharpsShooter2B has registered under a new name.

I am new here and have never been here before so please don't get me confused with someone else.
Are you referring to another similar thread that I might want to look at for an answer to my question? If yes could you point me to it please?
If not would you please take the time to explain to me what the meaning of your post is.

[semtav]

The post Boge referring to was deleted because it got too TECHNICAL.

I'm sure Boge was just joking. His joke is what may have been started the last one.

[df]

I am a novice in BPCRs but I have a #1 in 45-70 and 50-70.
My recollection is that when I ordered the 50-70 I consulted with Shiloh and they told me to go with the 1:36 twist, and I did. I probably told them that I would shoot 425/450 grain bullets which has been the case. I don't intend to shoot heavier bullets.
I shoot smokeless and am real pleased with the performance of the gun and the lighter bullets, both on paper and the one wild hog that I shot, so far.

[df]

I am a novice in BPCRs but I have a #1 in 45-70 and 50-70.
My recollection is that when I ordered the 50-70 I consulted with Shiloh and they told me to go with the 1:36 twist, and I did. I probably told them that I would shoot 425/450 grain bullets which has been the case. I don't intend to shoot heavier bullets.
I shoot smokeless and am real pleased with the performance of the gun and the lighter bullets, both on paper and the one wild hog that I shot, so far.