50-120 with smokeless

[4065shooter]

I know a guy with a Sharps 50-120, and wants to shoot smokeless. Anyone care to recommend a SAFE loading for it?
Hodgdon has 3 loads for a 50-140 and none with pressure over 27,900, but the amount of smokeless seemed like a lot to me.
Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Hodgdon H4831 .512" 3.750" 112.0 1,956 23,200 CUP 118.0 2,085 27,500 CUP
Hodgdon H4350 .512" 3.750" 101.0 1,916 22,000 CUP 108.0 2,091 27,200 CUP
Hodgdon Varget .512" 3.750" 87.0 1,958 24,000 CUP 95.0 2,088 27,900 CUP

[Kurt]

I hope that guy ain't you!

[George Babits]

smokless loads for the 50-140 - - - you gottabe crazy!! Give me the guys name so I can take out a million dollar life insurance policy on him. That case is so big and the bullet so far away from the powde rcharge that the bullet is nothing but an obstruction.

Back in the mid-1980's I shot next to a guy with a 50-140. I think it was built on a Ballard. Every time he toutched it off he got a bloody nose. Funny kind of a way to have fun. And that was with black powder.

George

[bobw]

Been shooting a 50-140 since 1991 with black powder, the recoil is bad enough for anyone with that. Don't have a clue why anyone needs more recoil. You look in the front of the Shiloh catalog and they will tell you they don't believe in using or warranty any of their guns with smokeless other than the cartridges you can buy factory loaded with smokeless. Just that simple, Bryan built Shiloh's have never been chambered for the 50-3 .25" period. Any 50-140 you find chambered in a Shiloh marked receiver was pre Bryan built and probably has a C.Sharps marked barrel complete with their screwed up chambering job. They can be made to shoot but most were simply rebarreled to smaller cartridge. There are atleast 2 guys on this forum who think smokeless in this case works ok . but when you take their advice get their full name and address so you know who to sue. You asked, bobw

[4065shooter]

No, it's not me and it's a 50-120. Hodgdon posted the 50-140 loads on their company site. Thanks for the comments and I've told him to hold off until we research this very thoroughly. I'm steering him towards duplexing. Something we all need to remember is that there are several new shooters getting into the game and look to these forums for guidance so we should be aware of that. Some may have big ideas and we don't want to discourage anyone more than necessary. Once he's use to using black, I'm sure in time, he'll come around to using straight black like most of us have. Thanks again. lb

[battleship gunner]

OK once again into the breach. Contact accurate arms and ask them about their 5744 powder which was designed for large sharps cases and they'll tell you what load to use. I have a .50-140 and have used 5744 for years with a PJ 650 creedmore bullet. It is my favorite sharps and I get 1 /12" groups w/ 10 shots @100yds. all day long. Yes it does have lots of recoil but they make recoil pads that address that. I have been called insane and other things but the gun works REAL well. It really shines @ 500 and 1,000 yds. If the guy was getting a bloody nose maybe he's doing something wrong, I never had any such problem and you can shoot it off hand w/o a pad. I once shot 82 rounds on a bench and didn't even have mild soreness. I'm almost 70 yrs. old and fairly small so if I can handle it I don't know any normal sized guy can't. You can call C. Sharps and ask them if you can use smokeless in their rifles and they will tell you "yes" IF you use the right powder. I know I shouldn't mention the "other guys" on here but I don't think Shiloh is worried about the competition.
OK let the insults begin.

Frank

[Dan O]

4065shooter,
What is the case length of this 50-120 ? The 50-90 is 2.5" and the 50-140 is 3 1/4". Just curious

[77 sharps]

4065shooter

While to me, shooting smokeless powder in my Shiloh is as appealing to me as taking my sister to the prom, using smokeless powder in larges cases can be done very safely. This is not the right forum to ask this question because it generates a lot of hysteria from persons not familiar with doing so. Not only can it be done safely, but factory ammunition was produced at one time. Accurate and Hodgdon both have loading data, I recommend reading Shooting the British Double Rifle by Graem Wright. All the information you need to know is in that book. It is very easy to damage a double rifle and if loading large cases with small powder charges was causing pressure excursions all the fine double rifles would be off face or popping off their ribs.

Also, a nitro for black load in a single shot rifle recoils noticeably softer than a full black load. I hope this helps.

Mike R

[alfajim]

OK once again into the breach. Contact accurate arms and ask them about their 5744 powder which was designed for large sharps cases and they'll tell you what load to use. I have a .50-140 and have used 5744 for years with a PJ 650 creedmore bullet. It is my favorite sharps and I get 1 /12" groups w/ 10 shots @100yds. all day long. Yes it does have lots of recoil but they make recoil pads that address that. I have been called insane and other things but the gun works REAL well. It really shines @ 500 and 1,000 yds. If the guy was getting a bloody nose maybe he's doing something wrong, I never had any such problem and you can shoot it off hand w/o a pad. I once shot 82 rounds on a bench and didn't even have mild soreness. I'm almost 70 yrs. old and fairly small so if I can handle it I don't know any normal sized guy can't. You can call C. Sharps and ask them if you can use smokeless in their rifles and they will tell you "yes" IF you use the right powder. I know I shouldn't mention the "other guys" on here but I don't think Shiloh is worried about the competition.
OK let the insults begin.

Frank

If going by your handle it must be a real come down to load for a .50-140 from 16" and + pounds of powder for your loads.

Jim

[4065shooter]

Thanks for all for the replies. I haven't been given the case length yet, however, it should be either 2.7' or 2.8" .

[battleship gunner]

Alfajim,
No I was not a 16" gunner but a 5" gunner. We saw more action than the big boys in '68-'69. The .50-140 is extremely accurate with my load and I use very little powder in the case since 5744 is not position sensitive which is what it was designed for. I'm not advocating using smokeless instead of holy black just giving the originator of this thread my view on the subject.

Frank

My long distance provider is Sharps.

[SFogler]

There are at least 2 guys on this forum who think smokeless in this case works ok . but when you take their advice get their full name and address so you know who to sue.

Amen. What a waste of a beautiful rifle to turn it into just another smokeless gun. But there's always that 10%. I just don't want to be next to them on the line.

[desert deuce]

Cheezze, so which battleship's gunnery was more effective at range The Yamamoto with 18.1 inch guns or the Iowa with 16 inch guns?

While the 16" would out penetrate the 18 inch the Iowa had better visibility and sights which changed the whole equation.

Visual for the Yamamoto maybe 9-10 clear day nm while the Iowa at least 12 nm plus and sighting by radar.

It would seem the starting load for the 120 would probably be OK in the 140 but I don't swim in that ocean.

I have shot a 50-140 with black powder................................once.

[desert deuce]

Cheezze, so which battleship's gunnery was more effective at range The Yamamoto with 18.1 inch guns or the Iowa with 16 inch guns?

While the 16" would out penetrate the 18 inch the Iowa had better visibility and sights which changed the whole equation.

Visual for the Yamamoto maybe 9-10 clear day nm while the Iowa at least 12 nm plus and sighting by radar.

It would seem the starting load for the 120 would probably be OK in the 140 but I don't swim in that ocean.

I have shot a 50-140 with black powder................................once.

[battleship gunner]

History time. The Yamato had a range of about 20+ n miles and the New Jersey had 23 n miles ( 26+ stat. miles ). The Iowa class had 12" BELT armor not 16" or 18" which accounts for her speed which was listed @ 32kns. but during our sea trials we went to 35 kns. Yamato I believe was 27 kns. During the Taffy 3 engagement Yamato was firing at the task force at better than 19 n miles and hitting. The New Jersey had radar fire control which made her far more effective at hitting their targets. I would not like to have seen those 2 magnificent monsters go at each other and to understand that you would have had to serve aboard either one ( preferably the N.J. ) to know what I mean. That said I would rather be aboard the N.J than the Yamato because we could score more hits quicker ( 3 rounds per min.N.J. vs. 2 per min. Yamato and I think Bismark could fire even faster) and our 2,700 lbs. AP could penetrate their 18" armor BUT her 3,250 lbs. AP would do a bad job on us if it hit but with our speed that would be harder to come up with a firing solution.
Now about the .50-140 if someone wants to sue someone start with the AA5744 maker since they were the ones who gave me the starting loads for both of my sharps and I do not use their heaviest loads because my rifle likes a more moderate load and that's where my accuracy comes from. I have been shooting smokeless in my rifles for more than 27 years and neither myself or anyone SITTING next to me has EVER been hurt and I have NEVER replaced any parts ( firing pins, springs etc ) even with all the 1,000s of rounds I've put through them. I've had several young shooters ( 12-14 years old ) shoot the .50 and they survived and didn't complain even if their fathers declined. So that is my story and I don't encourage anyone to agree or disagree with me, just sharing. If someone would take a poll as to how many people shoot smokeless vs black I think smokeless would be more than 10% by a wide margin and I'm not talking just .45-70s.

Done.

My long distance provider is Sharps.