Need help answering 40-70 BN 2 1/10 question

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Rollingblock
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Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:11 pm
Location: El Paso, Texas

Need help answering 40-70 BN 2 1/10 question

Post by Rollingblock »

Need some help.
I have a Shiloh Sharps chambered in a 40-70 bottlenecked case 2 1/10 long. (formed from necked down 45-70 case)
The caliber marking on the top rear flat is "Calibre 40" over 2 1/10. It has 40 70 stamped on the bottom flat under the handguard.
Is this the short necked 40-70 BN 2 1/10 or the later (Dan Phariss) long necked 40-70 BN 2 1/10 Government? Shiloh once did both chamberings. Were both caliber markings the same or different?
Thanks in advance - John
bobw
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Re: Need help answering 40-70 BN 2 1/10 question

Post by bobw »

RB mine is marked caliber 40 2 1/10 and it is the short neck variety but their were 3 versions of the 40-70 BN so a chamber cast might be in order to determine which you have. send me a snail mail addy via pm and I could sent you an empty case to try. bobw
bobw
Kurt
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Re: Need help answering 40-70 BN 2 1/10 question

Post by Kurt »

John.

A Paraffin wax chamber cast will tell you what you have in fine shape with no mess. Just light coat, very light, one patch with oil and a dry patch.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
battleship gunner
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Re: Need help answering 40-70 BN 2 1/10 question

Post by battleship gunner »

Maybe I'm wrong, which happens a lot, but I thought that .40-65 was 2.1".45-70 tapered to .40,and that a .40-70BN was 2.25" which means you get a .45-90 trim it and then size it down to .40. Just asking.

Frank

My long distance provider is Sharps.
bobw
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Re: Need help answering 40-70 BN 2 1/10 question

Post by bobw »

Your right Frank, you are wrong. 40-65 is a 45-70 tapered down to 40-65 at 2.1". The 40-70 Sharps Bottleneck (SBN) is 2.25". The 40-70 BN was made by using a 40-70 SBN sizing die and 45-70 2.1" brass leaving a case with the powder capacity of a 40-70 SBN but with a neck that was .15" short. Dan Phariss among others hated the short neck so he took a 40-70 SBN sizing die and ground some off the bottom of the die to create a LONGER neck with a shorter body which was hence forth known as the 40-70 Gov't dubbed and dully named by SPG and MLV. Dan considered it a better cartridge than the 40-65 was. There was a third version which set back the shoulder a bit more than the short neck one, but the 40-70 Gov't was the final mod. If one has a 40-70 Gov't chamber it will not chamber the short neck version, but a 40-70 Gov't cartridge would chamber in a short neck and fireform to the short neck. My fireformed 40-70 2.1" BN cases will hold 76 grs of Fg to just above the neck/shoulder juncture. The 40-70 Gov't is sized to give a shorter powder chamber at around 65 gr capacity. Mine will push a 330 gr ppb at 1375 fps and 370 gr ppb's at 1325 fps. The 40-70 Gov't was designed to use 400+ gr greasers at around 1175/1200 fps.

The 40-70 2.1" BN shoots okay and was used in 1984-85 extensively for schuetzen type shooting by the C. Sharps team at
Denver and did well with it using 5744 smokeless. The whole story of its use came from an article in the" American Sharpshooter "magazine from 1984. Questions????? bobw
bobw
battleship gunner
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Re: Need help answering 40-70 BN 2 1/10 question

Post by battleship gunner »

Bob,
Was I wrong as to how they got to the 2.25" (.45-90 ) as opposed to using a .45-70 case? My dimensions are correct are they not? Is one ( .45-65 vs .45-70SBN )better than the other and if so why, will the extra .15" make that much of a difference?

Frank
Rollingblock
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Location: El Paso, Texas

Re: Need help answering 40-70 BN 2 1/10 question

Post by Rollingblock »

Hello bobw,
Thanks for the response and offer of a 2.1 case with short neck for a test.
I know my chamber is not a 2.25 (original length).
Was hoping there was a quick, easy way of telling by barrel markings if it is the short or long necked version without having to pull out the cerrosafe. Am hoping it is the long neck version as different forums elude to the fact that the short neck version is not as accurate, or at least more temperamental to get to shoot well.
How happy are you with the short necked version and well does yours shoot, and do you use P.P. or G.C., and if G.C. which bullet(s) and weights?
Will do a chamber cast this weekend.

Regardless of the chamber cast outcome, was contemplating re-chambering to either an original length 2.25 (if it can be done leaving a clean chamber) or a 40-90 bottleneck.

However, if mine turns out to be a short necked version, and you have had good luck getting yours to shoot well, will play with it first before the re-chambering option.

Thanks - John
battleship gunner
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Re: Need help answering 40-70 BN 2 1/10 question

Post by battleship gunner »

I typed .45-65 vs .45-70SBN but I meant .40-65 & .40-70SBN, see what I mean about being wrong a lot.

Frank
Chief Beck
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Re: Need help answering 40-70 BN 2 1/10 question

Post by Chief Beck »

Rollingblock,

Your best answer to your question concerning re-chambering will come from Kirk @ Shiloh, contact him, he can tell you what he can do for your rifle, what will clean up and what will not. While your at it you may want to talk to him about putting in a PP chamber or if you stay with a GG chamber maybe have it cut with a 7 degree leade. You need to cover all the bases when you move forward on a project like this, fore sight is allot better than hind sight!


Dennis
"40 knots, no smoke"

"By God Woodrow; it’s been quite a party ain’t it?”
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SteveA
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Re: Need help answering 40-70 BN 2 1/10 question

Post by SteveA »

Maybe if you give Shiloh your serial number they can tell you exactly what the chambering is from their records.

Steve :)
bobw
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Re: Need help answering 40-70 BN 2 1/10 question

Post by bobw »

Chief Beck wrote:Rollingblock,

Your best answer to your question concerning re-chambering will come from Kirk @ Shiloh, contact him, he can tell you what he can do for your rifle, what will clean up and what will not. While your at it you may want to talk to him about putting in a PP chamber or if you stay with a GG chamber maybe have it cut with a 7 degree leade. You need to cover all the bases when you move forward on a project like this, fore sight is allot better than hind sight!


Dennis
CB the chamber is all ready to big to ream to a pp chamber config. Mine has a 1/8" freebore which eliminates a 7 degree leade. The 40-65 Crosnoe 22lr liner sure works well in mine. bobw
bobw
Chief Beck
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Re: Need help answering 40-70 BN 2 1/10 question

Post by Chief Beck »

Thanks Bobw,

I was thinking if he was going to go the .40-90 BN route. I would have thought that the 2-5/8" case would have been more than enough to clean things up?


Dennis
"40 knots, no smoke"

"By God Woodrow; it’s been quite a party ain’t it?”
bobw
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Re: Need help answering 40-70 BN 2 1/10 question

Post by bobw »

CB a guy could clean the chamber out to 40-90 SBN with a standard Shiloh chamber in all probability, but to an original spec chamber I don't think so. Seems like I compared my empty brass dimensions to a original spec chamber drawing once for the 40-90 SBN and the chamber is to big of diameter at the base of the 40-90 neck for a few thousands anyway. Check it out. A lot of people report less than desirable results with the 40-90 SBN and I think it is as simple as the oversized chambers in their guns, they were never made to use greasers or as a LR target cartridge. A friend of mine had Shiloh chamber a Saddle gun with a 30" HB in a tight chamber 40-90 SBN it shot well. If a guy wants his gun to perform like an original then you have to have it set up the same way ( chamber and loads) period. Just my 2 cts worth.

The short neck 40-70 BN was a very accurate cartridge but set up to use 5744 and greasers and some patch to groove ppb's, mine has a 1/8" freebore too allow seating them 1 driving band out and still keeping the base of the bullet in the neck. The C.Sharps team shot them in the 1984 &85 Coors Schuetzenfest at Denver. They reportedly sshot better than the 2 guns in 40-50SBN. bobw
bobw
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