Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Ask Shiloh questions about your Shiloh Sharps Rifle.

Moderators: Kirk, Lucinda

Grandpagunner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:36 am

Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Grandpagunner »

Just took delivery of a 1874 saddle rifle in 45-70 from an auction in the 8000 serial number range ( I'm thinking 1990's?). I've been loading for smokeless for years, but loaded my first BP rounds for this rifle. I used new Starline brass with 70gr (by volume) Goex FFF under a fiber wad & a 500gr swaged Montana Precision bullet. The rifle has a tang sight & a globe front sight, but no rear barrel sight. Shooting off a rest, my 100yard groups (if I can call them that) are in the 12" range. I wonder if changing the load would help, & if so, to what? Also considering that I've not shot through a tang sight before & my cheek weld might not be correct, although I shoot bug holes w/my other smokeless rifles. The rifle's barrel looks smooth & shiny. I tried to get the SPG reloading book, but they're not available. Any suggestions, help, etc. would be appreciated.
jackrabbit
Posts: 1792
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:04 pm
Location: Carpenter Wyoming

Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by jackrabbit »

What are you doing to control the fouling?
Grandpagunner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:36 am

Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Grandpagunner »

I swab the barrel with 70% isopropyl alcohol every 5 shots. The large groups are 5 shots groups.
BFD
Posts: 2789
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:36 pm

Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by BFD »

Try two wet, one dry, no alcohol. Bet it improves.
jackrabbit
Posts: 1792
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:04 pm
Location: Carpenter Wyoming

Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by jackrabbit »

Assuming your bullet fits your barrel and you overall cartridge length is such that it is not far off the rifling, I would bet fouling is most of your problem. I would either blow tube after each shot or wipe with a water soluble oil solution after each shot. Try that and see if it helps.
firefighter1990
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:49 am

Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by firefighter1990 »

My vote goes to your brass. Starline is good brass but needs to be annealed for adequate seal under the lower pressures of black powder use.
gunlaker
Posts: 2764
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:16 pm

Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by gunlaker »

There are a few things that can go wrong that will result in crazy accuracy.

Personally I would start with a bullet that has a good reputation for accuracy in a Shiloh. I have found that mine are not too picky, but the Saeco #740 is very easy to get shooting, although not as aerodynamic as the newer designs. The various Buffalo Arms Money bullets in .459" diameter and weighing somewhere in the 525-535gr range are also good. It also won't hurt to try some Swiss 1.5 if you can get some. 20:1 is a good place to start, but 16:1 can be better with pointy bullets.

How are you seating that bullet? Do you have much neck tension? Are you compressing the powder with the bullet and maybe distorting it?

I would also do like what Brent says and wipe after every shot. Fouling can be very detrimental to accuracy in a couple of ways. I don't generally bother with a dry patch after the wet ones when shooting grease grooved bullets, but some do.

Chris.
User avatar
Lumpy Grits
Posts: 7673
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:58 pm
Location: Springfield, Missouri-U.S.A. Earth

Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Lumpy Grits »

How did you compress the powder for your bullet? How much are you compressing?
Try a blow-tube(5 deep breaths)after EVERY shot.
Starline is very hard brass, and should have the case mouth area annealed before loading. Starline states this on their site.
Make sure there is no sight movement. I have seen front sights 'drift' in the notch.
Your 12 " groups-Are they round or show more vertical or horizontal?
Gary
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
Grandpagunner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:36 am

Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Grandpagunner »

Thanks for all the tips....i will try to respond to them all. I bought bullets from Montana Precision because I don't cast my own (yet). The isopropyl alcohol is water soluble for wiping the bore. I ordered a blow tube and will try that. The sights are solid. The groups are wider than high, which would be shooter error, so I concentrated on technique to no avail. (I don't have that problem with smokeless rifles). Ill also try annealing my brass. Also will try slight crimp. Won't be able to shoot again until this weekend but I'm anxious to try your suggestions!
User avatar
Lumpy Grits
Posts: 7673
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:58 pm
Location: Springfield, Missouri-U.S.A. Earth

Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Lumpy Grits »

No need to crimp.
Again I ask-How are you compressing the powder, and how much compression are you using?
G.
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
Maj. Forrest Smith
Posts: 295
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:48 am
Location: Stillwater, OK

Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Maj. Forrest Smith »

If your groups tighten up some by what you have tried with some of these suggestions, then you might also try reducing your powder charge.

You have been asked how you push the powder charge down (compression) to make room for bullet to go in. In his asking, he is informing you that you need to compress the powder down other than using your bullet to do it. It needs to be a separate step using a compression tool/die.

So, here you go, you will be:
1. annealing the top of the brass
2. (are you sizing the brass, neck sizing or slip fitting the bullet in the case?) (I agree, you will not need to crimp the bullet the case.)
3. Using a drop tube or vibrating the powder down into the case.
4. Using a .060 veggie wad between the bullet and powder charge.
5. Using a compression die to compress the powder charge to the correct length.
6. Making sure your over all length is correct for your rifle. Cody has made a good suggestion, start with an over-all-length (OAL), not far from your bullet being engage in the rifling.

You should have a pretty good idea with this process what your rifle can do.
Grandpagunner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:36 am

Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Grandpagunner »

Thanks major, ill use your steps and see what happens. I have been full length sizing new brass, but can try neck sizing fired brass.
User avatar
Lumpy Grits
Posts: 7673
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:58 pm
Location: Springfield, Missouri-U.S.A. Earth

Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Lumpy Grits »

And still the 'how are you compressing and how much are you compressing' question goes unanswered. :roll:
FWIW: I get my best results from FL sizing. I also get my best concentricity with the least bullet run out.
G.
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
Grandpagunner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:36 am

Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Grandpagunner »

Sorry Lumpy Grits....I used a drop tube then compressed about 1/8" using the bullet and my Redding seating die. I checked each bullet and didnt see any damage.
User avatar
Lumpy Grits
Posts: 7673
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:58 pm
Location: Springfield, Missouri-U.S.A. Earth

Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Lumpy Grits »

Do NOT use the bullet to compress :!: Oh-you have damage. You are at least swelling the bullet's nose.
This 70 gns of powder-Is this by weight?
What wad are you using between powder and bullet?
G.
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
Post Reply