Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

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gunlaker
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by gunlaker »

Grandpagunner wrote:Sorry Lumpy Grits....I used a drop tube then compressed about 1/8" using the bullet and my Redding seating die. I checked each bullet and didnt see any damage.
It's unlikely that you will actually be able to notice distortion by looking at it. I have accidentally compressed powder with the bullet seating die by having it set wrong. The bullet can still look fine, but the nose mayl get one or two thousandths larger in diameter. You can sometimes see this by trying to poke the bullets nose into the muzzle.

Basically these soft bullets are pretty fragile. In the ideal case you have a flawless bullet going into the chamber and it exits the muzzle in as perfect condition as it was when cast ( except a little bit shorter and with land impressions ). That's a pretty tall order if you think about it.

Chris.
Grandpagunner
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Grandpagunner »

Ok...no more using the bullet. Do I need to buy a compression die or?? I used a 0.030 fiber wad under the bullet and have some 0.030 plastic wads on their way to me from Shiloh, along with a blow tube. The 70 grains was by volume, not weight.
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Lumpy Grits »

Go by weight only, +/- .02gns
Your groups will shrink.
Take the bulk measure, and weigh and record each of the next 10 charges. You'll see the weight variance. Also bet it ain't close to 70 grains by weight too.
Get a compression die--
G.
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
Grandpagunner
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Grandpagunner »

I thought BP had to be measured by volume...ill try weighing my volume measures. Ill order a compression die now. Thanks!
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Lumpy Grits »

Measure by weight, if you want to hit the target each time- :P :lol:
Post up what you see in the weight vs volume difference.
You really need to get a copy of this book, ASAP.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categori ... BOOK-SBROW
Some of it is a bit dated-Still a good starting point.

G.
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
Grandpagunner
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Grandpagunner »

Thanks for the book link...ill order it 2nite. You've been a great help. Ill post results after new items come in and I can test shoot with them.
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Lumpy Grits »

What did you use for the bulk weight tool?
G.
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
gunlaker
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by gunlaker »

Gary he's only shooting at 100 yards so far. I wouldn't worry a lot about exact powder charges at those distances. You can get away with just a powder measure at distances a fair bit further. I do agree that for longer distances that careful weighing is good though. Last year I spent a fair bit of time with a .40-65 and .45-70 and came to the conclusion that you can't tell the difference between dropped and weighed charges at all at 200.

Here is an example 10 shot prone group at 200m with unweighed charges. I used an MVA powder dispenser.

Image

To give you a reference, the center circle is 2" in diameter. The height of the group without the flyer included is under 1/2 minute tall.

Chris.
bruce m
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by bruce m »

chris,
that is good vert.
the fclass x ring is about 1/2 moa and it takes a bit of work with a modern rifle to guarantee that.
perry and others stared that 1 gn of powder will equal about 1 moa of elevation at the palma ranges.
so even there, +/- 1/10 gn charges of black powder is probably quite useable.especially given that if the wind changes the sight requirement by 5 points, the elevation will change 1 point.
keep safe,
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus
jackrabbit
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by jackrabbit »

There is actually a significant number of very good shooters that think it is more accurate to shoot thrown charges rather than weighing them....
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Lumpy Grits »

I too use the MVA-It is a precision tool. Pretty sure the OP isn't use'n one.
The OP was get'n 12" groups at 100yds-Lots of wrong going on.......
We have yet to hear what the bulk weight tool was.
G.
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
gunlaker
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by gunlaker »

One trick I often use is to throw a charge with the measure and then put it on the digital scale. If it looks close +/- 0.3gr then I'm confident it is good at the chicken & pig lines, otherwise I dump it back in the hopper. I'm afraid to not weigh my charges past that distance though.

Chris.
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Lumpy Grits »

jackrabbit wrote:There is actually a significant number of very good shooters that think it is more accurate to shoot thrown charges rather than weighing them....
To be accurate-You have to be consistent.
I have a feeling the OP's powder charges were anything but consistent.
G.
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
gunlaker
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by gunlaker »

You are right about the consistency thing for sure. I thought I knew what consistency meant until I started the bpcr/bptr game.

Chris.
Grandpagunner
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Re: Old rifle, new BP shooter, wide groups

Post by Grandpagunner »

Ok...thanks to all who helped. I still haven't got everything, but put 5 rounds together with my new plastic wads, weighing my powder on a digital scale and compressing using the expander die, then thumb seating the bullets. 100 yd group went from 12" to 2". I'm sure when I get it all together, the groups will tighten. Next weekend ill be able to shoot out to 300yds on my home range.
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