Brand new and don't know what I have exactly

Ask Shiloh questions about your Shiloh Sharps Rifle.

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Robeng
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:01 am

Brand new and don't know what I have exactly

Post by Robeng »

Hi All, I'm sorry this message is so long but I need help badly.
I just got my Shiloh Saddle Rifle back in October 2018 and still have't shot it yet. I'm trying to figure out how to load cartridges for this rifle. BTW, it's also a beautiful piece of art! Shiloh's product quality is incredible! Re: Reloading but I am overwhelmed by all of the information on this forum and frankly confused. When I ordered my rifle I really didn't know enough about the reloading BP cartridge part.

Ordered and read the book Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge by Paul Matthews. Good book and informative but I still came away with a lot of questions too.

Here's what I got.
Saddle rifle in 45-70
34" full octagon barrel
Shotgun butt stock w/ steel buttplate - pretty much a Quigley configuration w/o the patch box and a different butt stock.
(didn't think to polish the barrel - oh well...)
AAA finish w/ Antique finish

Tired of looking at it and now want to shoot it. I am not new to reloading and do reload 308/30-06, as well as 223. All smokeless of course.

Questions:
1) I didn't specifically order a special chambering for Paper Patched (PP) cartridges. So I guess I got Shiloh's standard 45-70 chamber.
2) Can I shoot PP cartridges or do I have to shoot the grease grooved bullets,[/u] aka "greasers"? I want to try PP cartridges, am I out of luck?
3) Currently not casting my own bullets just yet so can somebody suggest a bullet, manufacturer, and where to by so I can get started? Would those be .458 cal
4) In my excitement when I got the rifle, I ordered RCBS Cowboy 45-70 dies, a Montana compression die, Starline 45-70 brass. I'm almost there but need/what to know what else do I need to get? Drop tube? Electric powder measure? BTW, Paul Matthews in his book say "No!". Thoughts? What is a lubrisizer?
5) Beeswax or waxed paper? Grease cookie? What's this?
6) Suggestions on powder FFg or FFFg? manufacturer or Pyrodex?
7) About the double set triggers... Is the set trigger (1st trigger you pull) supposed to be a really hard trigger pull? My set trigger requires quite a bit of "pull" to get the 2nd trigger to "click".
8) Finally, are there any BPCR matches in Northern CA where I could go and see what this madness is all about? Anybody here in the SF Bay area that I can get in touch with? Sorry for being bit scattered but I am currently a bit confused and frustrated.

If you read all this, my sincere thanks. If you have any feedback, I would appreciate any, and I would be very grateful.
Rob
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losttrail
Posts: 362
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:21 am
Location: Montana

Re: Brand new and don't know what I have exactly

Post by losttrail »

Welcome! Get ready for a fun ride.

I'm relatively new to this myself, since 2012, so I can only help some. I am blessed (or cursed) to have an older brother that is retired and shoots or has shot so many different disciplines throughout his life, that he has sucked me into BPCR and Cowboy Action. Blessed for the fun, cursed by the cost.

He gave me a C. Sharps 1875 in .40-65 which is a lights out beast that is a dream to shoot. Recoil (push) is light enough that I can and have shot 120 rounds in one day without any adverse affects.

Last week I was back home in MT so stopped by Shiloh in Big Timber and placed an order for a Quigley. Now the 18-20 month wait begins. Let's get to what I can answer of your questions. Take this for what it's worth and I know there are folks on this forum that know a lifetime or six more than I do about this.

1. Chambering - PP vs. GG - I'm not sure. Usually PP bullets are only seated in the case a short amount vs. GG bullets being deeply seated to cover all or almost all the grooves. I believe a lot will depend on how much throat and leade is in your chamber as to how much bullet you can have hanging our of the case. Casting your chamber might be a good idea and if you want to change it, you could possibly have your chamber re-reamed.

2. Again, whether or not you can shoot PP will depend on your chamber. I'm sure you can shoot PP as is, but it may mean you would have to seat your bullets deeper in the case and thus load less powder.

3. Bunch of places you can get bullets. I get mine from John Olsen in Miles City, MT. Another great guy with a wealth of knowledge and casts just about anything you can ask for. If PP, you will likely have a bullet diameter closer to .450 from my limited understanding, due to needing room for the paper to wrap the bullet. Again, this will be based on you particular rifle.

3a. These rifles can be uniquely individual as to what bullet weight and load they like. I.e., my .40-65 does not like light weight bullets. It shoots a pattern much like 00 buck with anything under 410gr but really shoots 420-430gr well. It also likes Schuetzen FFg best with Win LR Magnum primers. It can take a while in experimenting so don't buy a ton of any one thing until you figure out your rifle's sweet spot.

4. What you list is great, just don't over-compress your charges. Drop tube - ABSOLUTELY! A must for BP, somewhere between 24"-30", with a uniform pour into the funnel. Don't rush, you want the powder to have time to drop and settle. This will require minimal compression as the BP will settle and compress well. Electric powder measure? Nah. I do use a digital scale to ensure and even 52.5gr for my .40-65. Lubrisizer - if you are casting your own GG bullets, yes. And I vote for SPG lube although others like different. With GG bullets, ensure that the base has NO LUBE when you load. Lube will cause the wad to cling to the bullet, causing it to lose aerodynamics and tumble, whistle. Sounds cool but chances are you will never see where it went. If you are PP, then no need to lube.

4a. You will need some type of wad to place on top of the powder. I prefer vegetable wads about .035" thick.

5. Out of my area of knowledge as I'm still learning since I want to shoot PP in my Q when I get it.

6. Powder - That will depend on results you get through trial and error. Stick with true black. GOEX, Schuetzen, Swiss, Olde Eynsford.

7. Double set triggers - First trigger should be roughly about the weight of a good hunting rifle, your preference. Maybe in the 3-4# range? My 1875 has a single set trigger so after I cock the hammer, I push the trigger forward to 'set'. Then about a 1# pull and BOOM!

BPR in Northern CA. Hmmm.... since I like owning firearms in America, I'm not sure. :D

Hope this helps. It's a blast and the first time you crack off a BP round, you're hooked. The first time I launched one, I immediately called my wife and said: "I'm sorry, this is going to be expensive."
“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It our job to see that it stays there.” - George Orwell
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Lumpy Grits
Posts: 7675
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:58 pm
Location: Springfield, Missouri-U.S.A. Earth

Re: Brand new and don't know what I have exactly

Post by Lumpy Grits »

You could call Kirk or Lucinda at Shiloh Rifle and ask them
Have a note book handy.

Good info here.......
https://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Buffalo ... B000H7NBAM

Gary
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
SFogler
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 9:19 am

Re: Brand new and don't know what I have exactly

Post by SFogler »

When I first started I found "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West" by Mike Venturino a big help in getting me started in basic BP loading and the care and feeding of my rifle and cases. Also gives you an appreciation of the Sharps rifle history, differences in buffalo and target rifles, and the calibers they used then. This is available on the Shiloh website.

Black Powder Cartridge News magazine has good articles on BP shooting and loading.

Buffalo Arms is a good place to try for wads, powder, cast bullets, cases, all things BP. www.buffaloarms.com

Welcome to black powder shooting!
gunlaker
Posts: 2764
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:16 pm

Re: Brand new and don't know what I have exactly

Post by gunlaker »

- Can you shoot PP bullets in the standard chamber?

Yes. Most of your questions can be answered by spending a few hours reading old posts. Here is a very recent one that covers this question and will show you that you can definitely do it:

https://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopi ... =5&t=26656

Chris.
Robeng
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:01 am

Re: Brand new and don't know what I have exactly

Post by Robeng »

Hi All,

Sorry for going dark but life got in the way. Have been out of town a lot and just getting caught up. You guys are amazing! The wealth of collective knowledge is truly amazing. So much I need to learn about BPCR loading and shooting. I think living here is the San Francisco Bay area might not be the best place for finding like minded BP shooters.
I am currently compiling my list if questions to ask Kirk at Shiloh rifle. I hope he has the patience to spend a few minutes w/ me on the phone!

Thank you all for your help and I keep you posted on my future progress.

No currently casting my own bullets yet. Can anybody suggest a good 45 cal bullet to start with? What is it, who makes it and where can I get it, etc.
I just want to get started as soon as I can.

Thanks all.
Rob
pacecars
Posts: 584
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:19 am
Location: Tallahassee, Fl

Re: Brand new and don't know what I have exactly

Post by pacecars »

Buffalo Arms sells cast paper patch bullets. Try a few and see what shoots well and then you can get their mold
Real gun powder is black.
gunlaker
Posts: 2764
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:16 pm

Re: Brand new and don't know what I have exactly

Post by gunlaker »

Almost everything you'll ever need comes from Buffalo Arms. There are a number of molds they sell that will make bullets that shoot well in your rifle. I like the 458535M ( cast in 16:1 ) which shoots well in all of my .45 cal rifles.

Chris.
buffalocannon
Posts: 1583
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:03 pm

Re: Brand new and don't know what I have exactly

Post by buffalocannon »

Roebeng, the same weekend in early 2000 I picked up my Sharps from the fine people at Shiloh, I drove to Cody and purchased from Steve Garbe "SPG Lubricants BP Cartridge Reloading Primer" by Garbe/Venturino. Still have my Garbe-signed copy. I read the book from cover to cover, ordered the necessary items from Buffalo Arms, and loaded my rifle with the .45-100 load provided in the book. I was lucky enough to have two or three friends shooting a Shiloh who answered my questions and with whom I attended matches. Best wishes and good luck to you.
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