PP Hunting bullet

Ask Shiloh questions about your Shiloh Sharps Rifle.

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bobw
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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by bobw » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:29 am

Quit screwing around with fixed one size molds and get a KAL tool 45 TGBS adj. at .442" dia. patch with 9lb onion skin, vary your alloy from 1 in 30 to 1in 40 till you find what you want. 2 more things for you to ponder thousands of buffalo died from 420 grain ppb's in the 45-2.1 and many many thousands died from 500 gr ppb's in the 45-2 7/8". Never forget that before these, 425 and 473 gr 50's in the 50-70 and 50-2.5" worked well. The 44's in 380 - 500 gr ppb's killed a pile. Not once in the last 30 years have I read a article from the past lamenting that the author could not kill a big game animal in the 1870's on, in the west unless he used a 560 gr bullet. Good luck ,you need it. bobw
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MSalyards
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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by MSalyards » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:48 am

I got the .441 - .442 part down . My question was more for the performance of the rifle itself. . Like I said , I have 2 45/70s that work just fine. My venture into the 45/110 was a question for bullet performance for that rifle. Bullet nose , shape and length for top performance answered my question .Rdnk, and KW filled in the blanks for me . Thanks guys .

Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:30 pm

The 560 gr round nose bullet is something I came up with in paper patch after the impressive performance of the Grease Groove 520/government on the first buffalo killed with my sharps. Cast at 20-1 it snapped a rib clean in two, defected up hit the massive bulls spine traveled 10 plus inches lodged in the hump off side. And killed the bull instantly.

I wanted a paper patch mould with that nose profile and it ended up being 560 grs. It is a tad heavier than I had planed.


Now I see bobw that you mentioned all the old stats and the millions of buffalo killed by those 420 gr bullets. These are not in dispute no will I say otherwise as these are often touted by some on the forum.

However you purest boys neglect to mention, you never do, that the avg buffalo hunter took 5 shots to kill a buffalo. So this begs 2 reasons why it took so many shots to kill a single buffalo.

#1 your avg buffalo hunter was a shitty shot.

#2 your avg 420 gr 50 or 45 cal bullet was a shitty choice and wasn’t very efficient. If you avg 5 shots per kill obviously your a shitty shot or your chosen bullet is a Shitty one.


Now I am betting that it was about 50/50.

My own rifle has killed 4 buffalo, 2 at my own hand. The total for those 4 buffalo is 6 shots.

So obviously myself Bryan Y, and mike Jackson, are either much better shots than your avg buffalo hunter was, or we are using much better ie efficient bullets. Take your pick.

The second buffalo killed by myself and the third by Bryan Y used a paper patch round nose bullet of 530 grs cast 20-1, both were shot twice per the ranchers request to anchor them. Complete pass through on all 4 shots double lunged.

The 4th was a bull that was shot 3 times by a 45-90 with a 500 gr pp bullet cast 50-1. First shot was in the paunch and exited. The other 2 failed to exit, one was found on the off side in the meat almost under the hide. The other hit 1 lung and was trapped under the off shoulder. The bull got away and was finally coaxed to the edge of the draw it took refuge in 2.5 hrs later.

I used one single shot out of my 45-110 with that big round nose bullet, I fired took 3 steps and the massive bull dropped dead. We have performed autopsies on all 4 buffalo all of my bullet were never recovered as they passed completely through, except that first Bull as mentioned.

Today we are charged to be humane and responsible hunters, to kill as quickly as possible with the least amount of shots and suffering for the animal.

To emulate shitty marksmanship or a shitty bullet choice just because the old timers used them back in the day, you got some pretty questionable ethics.

You purest boys need to look at being honest and evaluating the efficiency of yesterday’s loads vrs modern day hunting ethics and what is expected of today’s hunter. You aren’t going to measure up very well to today’s standards.

Because I can tell you for a fact, the rancher was extremely pissed over that piss poor shitty performance of that soft lead paper patch load, that some purest folks told the guy to use. And I did because I had vouched for the guy. :evil:

The rancher had one question, why didn’t you use Kenny’s rifle, he offered?

Few years back was a hell of a nice buffalo bull on the cover of the BPCR news. The gentleman used a 45-70, it took 7 shots to kill it. Yeah color me not impressed.

Kenny Wasserburger
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Orville
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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by Orville » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:21 am

It dosn’t matter what bullet is used shot placement is way more important then what the bullet looks like.
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Shooting grease groove bullets in a sharps is new technology and just a passing fad.

BFD
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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by BFD » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:23 am

Orville wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:21 am
It dosn’t matter what bullet is used shot placement is way more important then what the bullet looks like.
That's the truth. Agonizing over the bullet is a waste of time for the most part. Avoiding particularly pointy bullets is about all that really matters. Then place it well.

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Don McDowell
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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by Don McDowell » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:30 am

Orville wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:21 am
It dosn’t matter what bullet is used shot placement is way more important then what the bullet looks like.
Exactly, and that's why a person needs to spends some time finding the most accurate loads for a given rifle.
In an 18 twist 45 the bullet length usually starts at somewhere around 1.3 and goes up from there.
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bobw
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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by bobw » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:03 am

Good reporting KW. I am more inclined with #1 a lot of people shooting who weren't the best shots. I also would take the rational that they didn't place the bullet where it would get the fastest results. You either shoot them in the correct spot in the head or heart shot. Correctly placed the head shot produces instant results, but it's a small target not every one who shoots a buffalo gets the opportunity at good head shot position. The heart lies partially covered by the front leg from a side view, but hold in the correct place, hit the heart or the plumbing off the top and you have a soon to be dead buffalo, that is the way it is. Buffalo have big lungs and they can take multiple shots there and still not fall over for a while. Not saying it won't be fatal, saying it takes them awhile to die. My first was a spike and I used a 45-2 7/8 with 540 gr ppb's 2 lung hits and still moving the 3 rd went thru the top of the heart and shortly he died. All the bullets exited. Cast 1-40. My last was a full sized cow shot with a 500 gr fn ppb out of my 50-140 at 100 yds, the shot going away at a slight angle hit behind the left ribs going thru the paunch taking out 1 lung, cutting the top of the heart and exiting between the 4th and 5th rib ending up in the frt muscle of the right frt leg. Cast 1 -30.Over 4' of penetration. I was there when dressed and skinned to autopsy them my self. I hunted them on Rick Hamiltons place in the Sandhills of Nebraska. I gave Rick 200 45 cal TGBS .442"ppbs cast 1-60 weighing around 550 grs that original style chambers shoot so well for his MR 74 in 45 -2 7/8" ,he shot a cow with them and his 2000lb+ herd bull. Rick is a fine shot put the bullets where they belong and they both died as fast as they do. I believe that the old buffalo hunters didn't particularly care if a buffalo dropped on the spot or how long it took, fact is multiple times I've read that they tried too incapacitate the lead cow with a shot to the lungs(lights) so she would just stand there so the herd would mill waiting for her to lead off. O P Hanna mentioned that he and Jim White never used more tin in their casting than it took to get good fill out in the mold and often were able to reclaim their bullets from the carcasses of the buffalo they shot. (Getting a Stand) by Miles Gilbert. Soft works, harder works also I all ways use what gives me the best accuracy in that particular gun I'm using. I also believe while today we all ways try for a quick humane kill shot that was not the case so many times in the 1870's to 1880's buffalo slaughter time period. bobw
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Don McDowell
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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by Don McDowell » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:31 am

Always here so much about soft alloy's... Specifications for the 45 Springfield rifle was for the bullet to be 16-1... Same for the 45 caliber pistol.
1878 winchester catalog specifies the bullet in the 45-70 as 16-1 alloy.
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Kurt
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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by Kurt » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:30 am

I think the old hide hunters were more or less restricted with the shorter lighter bullets because of the slower twists used in the rifles back then.
I have downed three and never recovered a bullet, all passed through. One was hit on a facing angle that passed through a long way from just behind the front leg elbow and broke his hind leg on the fare side and kick up sand.
I tend to hold a little high for a heart shot because of the long mat of hair on his chest and the heart lies low in the chest.
All three I used the same 485 grain PP bullet almost a round nose of the original profile they used back then cast at 1/20 alloy shot with the .44-90 BN and .44-77 with a 1/19 twist.
Shot placement is the key. Put one behind his ear or just above the eyes centered on his scull he will drop in place on his chest.

Good bullet and it worked.
44-77 Sharps.jpg
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BFD
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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by BFD » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:44 am

Kurt, most of the old .45s that I have looked at are 18" twists. Ballards as well as Sharps.

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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by Kurt » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:55 am

I thought they were 20's
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BFD
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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by BFD » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:11 am

My Ballard isn't and a few original Sharps owned by friends aren't.

mdeland
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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by mdeland » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:04 pm

A dynamic that needs to be brought into the conversation when talking of historical buffalo shooting is that many thousands were killed with arms mustered out of the Civil War, which for the most part were not meant for big game shooting and in most cases were completely inadequate for the purpose. This I'd bet helps explain the abysmal five shots per kill equation.
What we mostly read about from history and in line with our interest is the equipment used by the most successful professional hide hunters not the myriad of those who used what they had in that post war time of economic depression.

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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by mdeland » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:23 pm

It's hard to accurately tell a barrels pitch from using a tight patch on a cleaning rod. It is just to rotation-ally flexible for a repeatably accurate read. The only sure way is to cast a slug and measure it on the rod or if it happens to be stamped on the barrel which you will virtually never find on a mounted barrel.

BFD
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Re: PP Hunting bullet

Post by BFD » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:32 pm

Mike, as is often the case, I disagree. I have measured twist on rifles many times with tight patches. Done on rifles of known twist, I get back the manufacturer's twist, what makes you think I can't do this (and do it repeatedly ) on rifles of unknown twist?

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