BN vs Straight cases

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Distant Thunder
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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by Distant Thunder » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:19 pm

bruce,

That is the problem! I can only do my best to cover as many of them as I can before I'm done and I sit down to rest that final time.
Jim Kluskens
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Distant Thunder
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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by Distant Thunder » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:24 pm

Mike,

I will do some chronographing when warmer weather returns to the frozen tundra and compare to my .45-70 and .45-90. I may even be able to compare it to the notes from my .44-100 ST. I do not have that rifle anymore.

I know you have had good results with your little .40-50 BN, so they aren't all bad!
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder

We have entered a new age of tyranny in the United States! And no one seems to care!

"Let us stand our ground. If we die, let us die here." Reverend William Emerson Concord, Massachusetts April 19, 1775

Chip Mate
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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by Chip Mate » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:38 pm

I have won the Az state silhouette and creedmoor championships with a 44/77 ,cant remember the dates but Gullo knows because he was there.The bn cases are more efficient because I get higher velocities with the 44/77 using less powder than my 45/90.

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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:47 pm

Good to hear from you Chip, my Friend.

Hope you and Deb are healthy and well.

Kenny Wasserburger

Ps you’re making me lust for a 44-77.
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Distant Thunder
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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by Distant Thunder » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:04 am

Chip,

I apologize, I knew you had won at least one match shooting your .44-77, but I looked and could not quickly find either the matches or the dates and I didn't want to speak for you and be wrong. Thank you for posting the information.

I have not chronographed enough loads from my .44-77 nor have I compared any of what I have done to my .45-70 or .45-90. My old, pre-2009, grease groove load in my .45-90 happens to have used 85 to 86 grains (excuse my poor memory) of Swiss 1 1/2 under 520 grain bullet just like my current .44-77 paper patch load. It should be a fair comparison when I have time and weather to do some chronographing.

So I will conclude that the "more efficient" that MikeT spoke of is higher pressure cased by the constriction of the bottleneck resulting in higher velocity.

One thing I find interesting is that though Sharps did move to the longer straight .45 caliber cases in later years the .40-90 BN remained popular with the buffalo runners. That was in spite of the .40 using a pretty light bullet compared to the .45s.

No matter, I am enjoying the heck out of my .44-77!
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder

We have entered a new age of tyranny in the United States! And no one seems to care!

"Let us stand our ground. If we die, let us die here." Reverend William Emerson Concord, Massachusetts April 19, 1775

Kurt
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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by Kurt » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:22 am

My .44-75 Ballard uses the same load as my .44-77. The barrels have the same ROT and dimensions. I never choreographed either calibers so I might when the weather is fit.
I have mentioned a few times shooting my .44-90 bn and the .44-100 Rem St. that the dust kicked up faster at 600 yds shooting the .44-90 bn :D
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Nuclearcricket
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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by Nuclearcricket » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:37 am

Thank you all for the information and for keeping things on topic. My thoughts were that all else being equal the BN case may have a slight speed advantage. I guess we will all have to wait for warmer weather to nail down the facts as close as we can.
As to why some places stuck with the BN cases in the military weapons and other places went with straight, that might just be a question for the ages and one that never really gets answered. As to why modern shooters use straight cases, thats pretty easy to answer, its cost and availability. I think that is BN cases were just as available as the straight ones more folks would try them. As it is, some of the BN cases are just hard to make or come by. There are some that are easily made from another case but others not so much. And dies for the older BN cases I feel are excessively expensive.
But I digress, back to the the topic. It does sound like the proper BN cases will maybe give a slight advantage on speed, or maybe just a bit more pounce to the ounce so to speak.
Thanks again
Sam

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Don McDowell
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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by Don McDowell » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:01 am

Not to your question about the 40's, but my 44-77 will use about 5 grains less powder than the 44 2.4 st, with the same bullet for the same basic velocity.
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Distant Thunder
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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by Distant Thunder » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:34 am

Don,

I may have been mistaken but I didn't take it as question about .40 caliber so much as I took it as a question about bottleneck vs. straight cases in general. Either way it has resulted in a good discussion and we need more of those.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder

We have entered a new age of tyranny in the United States! And no one seems to care!

"Let us stand our ground. If we die, let us die here." Reverend William Emerson Concord, Massachusetts April 19, 1775

SSShooter
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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by SSShooter » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:05 am

Chip Mate wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:38 pm
I have won the Az state silhouette and creedmoor championships with a 44/77 ,cant remember the dates but Gullo knows because he was there.The bn cases are more efficient because I get higher velocities with the 44/77 using less powder than my 45/90.
Thanks for letting us know.

Is the 44/77 still your cartridge of choice to this date and your primary cartridge for competition? If not, why not?
Thanks.
Glenn

Nuclearcricket
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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by Nuclearcricket » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:42 pm

Seems I may have caused a little confusion to some, I mentioned the .40 cal rounds only because I knew that there was both a straight and bottle neck version with the same powder listing, i.e. the 40-70. What I was really interested in knowing is if the same bullet and same power charge would produce the same velocity in the different case shape. I do appreciate the discussion and the knowledge shared here.
Sam

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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by martinibelgian » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:30 pm

My favourite cartridge is the no.2 Musket , also known as the 500/450 no.2. The next one is the 32-20, also a BN. I do have a 45-70, though... FWIW, for those claiming that BN cartridges disappeared from creedmoor shooting, forget it. In he UK, it was almost exclusively BN cases that were used, and longrange shooting lasted quite a bit longer than in the US. It's not because Sharps dropped them that they weren't any good...

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Don McDowell
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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by Don McDowell » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:14 pm

Sam it would be interesting to have 2 rifles, 1 in 40-70 st and one in 40-70 bn and do a side by side comparison.
The bottlenecks are really pretty easy to get shooting and shooting well, and to a certain extent I do agree with Mike T that they bn are more efficient, but when working with blackpowder the velocity gains aren't terribly spectacular due to the nature of bp.
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bruce m
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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by bruce m » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:50 pm

the brits used the 461 gibbs (b.n.) extensively for long range shooting, and were not allowed to wipe.
not that this proves anything, as they had probably the best powder in history, and their climate is noted for not having dry air, and they used the blowtube.
eat you liver zack, not like where you live.
major hinman mentions the use of bottle necks continuing to the end of the era in the u.s.
a late development in long range black powder cartridges was the 40/90 peabody - a bottle neck.
interestingly a 40 cal shooting a 500 gn bullet.
bruce.
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art ruggiero
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Re: BN vs Straight cases

Post by art ruggiero » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:58 pm

several years ago i got a shiloh in 44/77 with some help from chip mate it shot great right out of the box and still does thanks chip art ruggiero

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