Over primer wads

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Kurt
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Re: Over primer wads

Post by Kurt » Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:24 pm

kwilliams wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:19 pm
That erosion looks like it could have been caused by loose primer pockets? I have used primers wads now for 3 years in 2 rifles, so far so good.
kw
That was my first thought also.
I replaced the CPA block and I keep that one in the photo for a spare in case for a firing pin brakes for a quick change during a match. The flame cuts stopped when I quit using the under primer and under powder wads. I still use the same brass.

The .50 Shiloh I have used in the past more than any of my Rifles and I kept track with the amount of primer bricks I used by numbering them, but I lost count after 21 bricks during the primer shortage during Obama's time I would say it has most likely have over 25K rounds shot through it and I still use the same brass and the flame cuts stopped when I quit fooling around with the wads. So I feel loose primers were not the cause.
One thing that might have some issues is the heavy compressed load of 118 grs of 2F powder for the .50 and 109 gas for the .44-90 might have held the wad under the powder tighter creating back pressure, I don't know for sure. The problem stopped.

Kurt
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JonnyV
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Re: Over primer wads

Post by JonnyV » Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:34 pm

So you had a wad under the powder and another seated inside the primer pocket itself? You were running pistol primers? I haven't tried that yet, still just using regular large rifle (CCI), and only an under powder wad. No evidence of any flame cutting on my block.

Kurt
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Re: Over primer wads

Post by Kurt » Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:40 am

No, not both in the same shell.
The .50 I just dropped a was cut from paper over the flash hole to keep the fines out.
The .44-90 bn I used pistol primers and doing this I cut printer paper seating the primer so it bottomed out holding it where it should be at a proper depth flush with the head.
I also loaded rounds with rifle primers but just a wad under the powder, not both.
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Re: Over primer wads

Post by sandhillcowboy1 » Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:54 am

Kurt wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:14 am
You defeat the purpose of the drop tube if you stick the tube in the case mouth. Pulling it out of the case you loosen the powder or even spill it out of the case.
O
My drop tube end looks like Kurt’s except I am using a flat based cap with the hole drilled through end of cap to accept drop tube. The tube only extends through the cap a 1/16 of an inch maybe. Helps center on the case neck.

I have used under powder wads and some of my best loads were using them. I think powder type and granulation size probably have some bearing on results.

Rick
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Re: Over primer wads

Post by TAA » Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:48 am

Kenny,

What is the thickness of the ashless paper you are using (1st page here)? If I read the info correctly, 20 micrometer is noted. That converts to 0.000787”. Wax paper is 0.0025”, white coffee filter is 0.003” and newsprint is 0.00325” thick.

Thanks!

Tom

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Re: Over primer wads

Post by Lumpy Grits » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:43 pm

Kurt, what primer did you use in the 50?
FWIW: I have used a white coffee filter paper under powder wad for many years with my CCI br2 rifle primers. No breechface marking, the crono and target showed me it was the 'rite' thing to do.
Gary
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Re: Over primer wads

Post by Geologist » Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:31 pm

I have shot 7,000+ cartridges with "over the primer" wads (ashless filter paper) and Federal Match large pistol primers through my High-Wall and have not seen that.

Kurt
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Re: Over primer wads

Post by Kurt » Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:15 pm

Lumpy Grits wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:43 pm
Kurt, what primer did you use in the 50?
FWIW: I have used a white coffee filter paper under powder wad for many years with my CCI br2 rifle primers. No breechface marking, the crono and target showed me it was the 'rite' thing to do.
Gary
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Re: Over primer wads

Post by Lumpy Grits » Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:31 pm

Kurt wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:15 pm
Lumpy Grits wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:43 pm
Kurt, what primer did you use in the 50?
FWIW: I have used a white coffee filter paper under powder wad for many years with my CCI br2 rifle primers. No breechface marking, the crono and target showed me it was the 'rite' thing to do.
Gary
GM210M



TY!
G
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Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Over primer wads

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:01 pm

Not sure of the thickness of the Ashless filter paper never checked it.

Used it over pistol primers in my 38-50, and inside the case in my 45-110s with over 30,000 shots in 2 separate rifles. No such flame cutting of my breach blocks :shock: nor any such damage to the 38-50.

I did have one breach block crater around the pin hole, which was common back in the day. It had over 19,000 rounds on it, it and the original barrel both were tired. Both replaced under warranty, from the best maker of Sharps rifles.

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I do have a 1877 due any Day now, looking forward to shooting it A lot.

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Re: Over primer wads

Post by losttrail » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:19 am

I've been using tissue paper left over from wife's present wrapping in my .40-65 loads. While I don't have a chrono, the groups have tightened up about 25% since I started using the tissue paper over primer. All other elements of the load have stayed the same:

420gr Money2 GG
0.030" fiber wad
52gr Schuetzen 2F
Winchester LRM primer

If I can ever get my Quigley from Shiloh, I plan on doing the same although the 45 2-7/8 will be paper patch.
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Re: Over primer wads

Post by TAA » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:43 am

This OPW subject is quite interesting. A friend offered this opinion…

My uninformed opinion is that you would want something that will not impede the primer flash much but will keep any powder from getting into the flash hole or primer pocket. So, thin and porous but maybe a little stiff so powder compression doesn't affect it much. That Whatman #41 is pretty stiff but also not as porous as some other papers in order to retain very fine-grained precipitates under filtration. The ashless part comes from treating the paper with hydrofluoric acid to remove any mineral matter. When you ignite the paper + filtrate, all the paper mass disappears and the remaining mass is the filtrate only.
I'd try some coffee filters.

FWIW

Tom

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Re: Over primer wads

Post by gunlaker » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:36 pm

Kenny Wasserburger wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:53 pm
Pretty damn impressive numbers .300 compression of Swiss :shock: i am not shocked.

I ran more than that in my 38-50 with Swiss and it shot quite well.

Reference the 2015 Midrange Prone Nationals scope class.

Those are eye opening numbers good for you.

Kenn W.
I'm also not surprised at that amount of compression. My .40-65's work very well with about the same compression on Swiss 1.5. This is one area where the internet is quite wrong. So many people saying Swiss doesn't like compression. It works well with or without. I've found that every powder I've used liked a certain amount of compression.

I've never had any problems with pistol primers and wads in the pocket either, except once on a C. Sharps 1874. I was foolishly using old, very well used, brass that came with another rifle I'd bought. The primer pockets were a little loose and I am sure that was the cause. Like you, I've used them a lot with no trouble so far.

Chris.

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Re: Over primer wads

Post by opencountry » Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:38 pm

Kenny, and others using this ashless filtration paper, I assume you're using a .45 caliber bench press hole punch from Baco (which I have) for your .45 caliber cases, right? And, are you pushing the filter paper wad down into the case with a dowel, atop the flash hole, then adding the powder, wad, compressing the powder, etc.? I've got to give this an honest test myself.

Robert
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Re: Over primer wads

Post by VenisonRX » Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:05 pm

Robert,

Like Mr Bob W. I use coffee filters but the process your asking about would be pretty much the same regardless of material. I used my drill press as a lathe to sand down a 1/2in dowel to just under my case dimensions and I use a 7/16in hollow punch from harbor freight that chucks into my drill press. I can cut quite a few wads in short order with a stack of filters.

Then yes I set it on top of my dowel and slip the cartridge over it. That was after cursing everything in my garage when I tried to drop them in just to have them land vertical and crumble up on me while I tried to use a small Allen wrench to push them down.

With really thin paper the dowel can’t be beat. I also use that to help get my over powder card set straight and while it was in the press I used my calipers to scribe a line to give me my seating depth so I can check for proper compression. It’s like a handy specific load multi tool. I even wrote my load data on the side of it.
—Tom

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