original sharps 45-110 and Paper Patched Bullets

krems · Post by **krems** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:57 pm

Greetings,
I was all excited to shoot this new Sharps 1874 sporting rifle chambered for the 45-110. The bore is in excellent condition but dimensions are on the large side .4535 / .461". I was totally disapointed with my first attempt at PP bullets. I tried a straight sided 500 gr. ..451" patched up to ...457" bullet. 8"groups at 100 yards. BTW I had to neck ream 15 cases to chamber a ..459/..460" bullet otherwise a .4565" bullet was all i can chamber. Even with a .460" bullet I can seat the bullet way out before it touches the rifling. It appears that there is a long throat as well.

Any suggestions on what I should try to get this to shoot. Do I wrap the paper with the twist or against the twist of the bore? Should I try patching up to a .460" bullet? I'm using 30-1 alloy and a cupped base mould. Load was 95 gr. swiss 1f, .30 wad, .90spg lube, .60veg wad.

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks in advance. .....Krems

Josh A. · Post by **Josh A.** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 9:43 pm

Dear Krems:
I have never paper patched, but I thought they were normally done in pure lead or close to it. So they will bump up and fill the grooves?

Josh

krems · Post by **krems** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 10:26 pm

Josh,

Your right. The only lead I had was 30-1 alloy.....Maybe it's not bumping up all the way.

Also just a slight typing error... I used a .030wad on top of the powder followed by a .090 spg wad - .060" veg wad then seated the bullet

krems

Rick Crabtree · Post by **Rick Crabtree** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:39 am

Is this an original Sharps or a repoduction? If it is an original it sounds like you may have one that is chambered for PP cartridges. Some of the originals had chambers that were specific for PP cartridges. As proper PP bullets are about BORE not groove diameter. Sharps 45 cal PP bullets were tapered and about .451 to .449 WITH the patch. Using a standard chamber for bullets .458-.459 . With bullets that are .451 leaves a little sloppiness and over works the brass. Though I have used PP in all my Sharps that all had standard chambers with good success. As for the throat it could be the rifle was fired a lot and the bore is worn I have heard of this on originals and seen guns that appeared to be erroded.
If it is a reamed throat you should be able to see the throat by looing through the breech. Some of the early Shiloh's were so throated.
Depending on the weather where you are shooting the .090 grease cookie may not be enough. I use .125" in 45-110 and sometimes that is a little shy of adequate.
Hope this helps.
Good luck
Rick

Crash Landing · Post by **Crash Landing** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:25 pm

Krems:
If your wad dimensions are correct, you have 1.8 inches of wads in your cartridge cases (.30 top wad, .90 SPG lube, .60 veggie wad). I’ve been shooting paper patch bullets for a long time and find that milk cartons make good wad material and SPG lube wad of about .125 up to about .175 should be plenty thick enough. Also make sure you blow the barrel between shots. Check your muzzle crown after a few shots and it should show a nice greasy lube "star" across its face. If the muzzle lube star is dry or flaky, your lube wad is not thick enough.
Hope this helps a little.

krems · Post by **krems** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:35 pm

Rick / Crash,

Maybe I'm going at this in the wrong direction. Maybe I should try a softer alloy and use bore diameter instead of trying to fill up the grooves. Forget about neck reaming the brass and use.454" when patched bullets. Worth a try anyway.

BTW, Rick... this is an original Sharps rifle with a throat in it. I really don't like sticking the bullet out so far especially in this caliber when there is plenty of powder space to begin with. I've got a lot of experimenting to do with this one.

Even w/ the .090" spg lube cookie I didn't notice a lube star on the muzzel crown.

Any one have any words of wisdom on which way to wrap the patch on. Do I want it to go with the barrel twist or against it so it unravels ??

Thanks for the help.....krems

Ken Hartlein · Post by **Ken Hartlein** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:13 pm

I believe you should wrap the paper so that it does not unravel, so the tag end of the paper is turning with the twist, not against it. Also I think you should use a .125 grease cookie. I just loaded up 20 PP with a 550 grain pure lead bullet, 10 loaded with 65 grains of 2Fg and 10 with 65 grains of 3Fg, goex. Going to shoot them tomorrow. COL is 3.070. I use one .030 LDPE wad over the powder and another .030 wad over the cookie. Hopefully I'll see tomorrow how they do. Compression was .290 on the 2Fg, and ??? on the 3Fg.

Buckskinner · Post by **Buckskinner** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:03 am

Ken

Couple of questions for you.

Are you pp for a 45-70? If you don't mind what type and Thickness of paper are you using? Have you always used pure lead?

I am looking for all the PP experience from you guys I can get!

Thanks

Buckskinner

Crash Landing · Post by **Crash Landing** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:41 pm

Krems:
A couple of quick points:
- The paper patch goes the opposite direction of the rifling. That acts to twist the paper patch tighter rather than try to strip it from the bullet.
- I think your lube wad at .09 inch is not thick enough. I recommend it be at least .125 inch or better yet .150 or a little more. I use a lube wad of .165 inch
- Alloy. It is a myth that paper patch bullets need to be pure lead. Unless you are going to swage them from lead wire, pure lead is a pain to cast. Your 1:30 should work quite well. I use 1:25 for both paper patch and grease groove bullets. In the 1870’s, paper patch bullets were available from Sharps as hard as 1:16.
Nuff said?
Hope this helps a little

Al · Post by Al » Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:06 pm

I've been shooting alot of paper patch bullets the last few weeks and I found the biggest help came from using a taper crimp die for consistant neck tension. I shoot a 45-90 and have been getting good groups at 200yds ever since I started using that die. As far as the lube cookie goes a .060" thick cookie works best in my rifle. When I tried a .090" cookie the bullets scattered all over the place. The bullets I shoot are 540gr straight sided and some 500gr tapered bullets in 1:25 alloy.

JAGG · Post by **JAGG** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:22 pm

K ! Use a bore diameter bullet what ever alloy you have that is lead and tin only ,1 to 30 is OK ! Cast or size your bullet before patching to 454 dia then patch with the edge going against the rifling so it will spin off if it needs to past the muzzle ! 3/16 lube wad with wads under and over the lube wad ! News print under the bullet ! You chamber is a problem here ! ? JAGG

krems · Post by **krems** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:32 pm

Hello,

Thanks for all the suggestions. I just talked to Tom Ballard about having a PP bullet made to better fit my chamber. I'm going to try wrapping the bullet w/the patch going with and against the rifling just for kicks. I'm also going to experiment w/ . .060 and .150" lube wad as well. Should be interesting to see what happens.

Krems

Ken Hartlein · Post by **Ken Hartlein** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:09 pm

Buckskinner; I bought the PP bullets already patched from Montanna Bullet Works, but I think he uses the same paper I bought, from Buffalo Arms, it's .002 100% cotton paper.

Ken Hartlein · Post by **Ken Hartlein** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:12 pm

Buckskinner, I forgot to answer; yes it's for a 45-70 and yes they are pure lead. When I make my own for PP they will be either 1:30 or 1:40 and about 500 grains.

Buckskinner · Post by **Buckskinner** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:39 pm

Ken

Thanks for the info.!!

I bought the same paper from BA. I am going to start with 20: 1 and go from their, I have read a lot and talked to as many people as I can,

to see what they are using. Trying to get in the ball park!

Thanks again

Buckskinner

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