Whitetail 'burger

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

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MudChild
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Whitetail 'burger

Post by MudChild »

I don't know much about reloading smokeless, and nothing at all about blackpowder, so my question may seem a bit foolish. Could I load a 45-90 down so as to not tear a whitetail into pieces? I'm all for good clean kills, but, as a wise man once said, "Never swat mosquito with cannon."
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Omaha Poke
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Post by Omaha Poke »

Mud child, besides stating the obvious, which I am sure you obviously already know which is shot placement. The slower velocity of the BP round does not destroy a lot of meat like the high vel rounds do. Like it was pointed out to me on the hunters forum, in the words of Elmer Keith"you can eat right up to the hole"!!! And that is the truth! Your heavy lead bullet will punch a hole in the critter that no modern, high vel cartridge could even think of doing, and go all the way through to boot. The modern high vel bullets creat a lot of shock, little penetration, and do a tremendous amount of damage to to tissue (meat)!!

I am going to hunt more and more with BP and heavy (500+ gr) bullets to do my meat gathering from now on. Randy
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rdnck
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Whitetail burger?

Post by rdnck »

MudChild--Don't worry about tearing your deer up with a 45-90. Shoot a 500 grain or better round nosed bullet at 30-1 or so with 85 grains of Goex 1f or 2f, and you will put two holes in him. One going in, and one coming out. Like Omaha Poke says, you can eat right up to the hole. The deer will be dead within 100 yards or less of where you hit him, and he won't be torn up.

The only bullet that gives a lot of meat destruction is the 340 grain Gould hollowpoint. It very likely won't give really good accuracy in your 45-90 with black powder anyway, so you probably won't be tempted to use it. Shoot straight, rdnck.

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ironramrod
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Post by ironramrod »

Mudchild,

Several issues back in the Black Powder Cartridge News contained an article by Mr. John Hansen re: use black powder cartridge rifles for hunting buffalo.

One section deals with bullet shape and weight of cast lead bullets in which he indicates that flat nose bullets are much better than round nose or spire point bullets for killing buffalo. He indicated that the wound channels are much more aggressive, but without being destructive to the meat. Additionally, when the bullets start hitting things like bone they apparently have a greater tendency to continue travelling straight ahead rather than end somewhere else inside the animal.

Mr. Hansen also supplied lots of other information on other aspects of hunting; things like calibers, velocities, sights and more. A very good hunting equipment article. I would surmise that if what he says is good for buffalo it should certainly hold some merit for deer, elk or just about any other big game that one might hunt with a black powder rifle; cartridge or muzzleloader.

Regards
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Trigger Dr
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Post by Trigger Dr »

Rdnck,
I must respecfuylly take exception to your last post re. the Gould Hollow Point bullet.
I cast mine at 20:1 and load it over 85 gr goex cart. in the past i used 85 gr of FFg with a WLRM primer. I have shot this round in my 86 Win Serial # 42xxx for the past 20 odd years. I havetaken deer,antelope and Elk with this load and the ONLY time I found excessive tissue destruction was when they were cast too hard. Then and Only then, there was massive destruction due to fragmentation. Ken Hartlein is currently using some of these that I cast, for an Elk hunt in Colorado. I will reserve final comment till after he returns and gives his results.
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MudChild
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Post by MudChild »

Ya' know, I love this website. Even those of us who haven't yet pulled our heads out of our tailends can still get straight answers from knowledgable people, without being scoffed at. I thank you all.
MLV
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Post by MLV »

I've used Lyman 457122HP (336 grains of 1-20 alloy) in a .45-70 to take a half dozen Texas whitetails during a depredation hunt and on Montana Mule Deer. It didn't tear up the little whitetails much, but didn't penetrate real good on the big Montana mulies. I consider Lyman 457193 (420 grain flatnose) a better hunting bullet.
rdnck
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Hunting bullets

Post by rdnck »

TriggerDr, MLV--I can only base my opinion of the merits of the 457122 Gould Hollowpoint, the 457193 Lyman 420 grain flatnose, the 457125 Lyman Govt. bullet, and the 457132 Postell on their performances on deer and hogs killed in Texas, Louisiana, and Arkansas by myself and my friends. If I didn't shoot it, or see the results, I wouldn't comment on it.

I have shot deer with the Gould hollowpoint cast of everything from wheelweights to pure lead. I have shot his bullet in 45-70s and I have shot it in 45-90s. And Trigger Dr is right about one thing--the harder bullets blow up and do a tremendous, make that excessive amount of damage. The '86 Winchester has a slower twist than today's Sharps, and will handle this shorter bullet well. It doesn't want to shoot out of an 18 twist barrel, and none of my three Shiloh 45-70 Sharps will hit due east with this bullet using black powder. One of my 45-90 Sharps has a 1-20 twist, and it will shoot it after a fashion. My original 45-70 Roller has a 1-22 twist barrel and it shoots the bullet fairly well.

When the bullet is recovered under the skin on the opposite side of a deer, it leaves a hematoma the size of a volletball, whether it is 20-1, 30-1, or pure lead. That is a LOT of bloodshot meat. I quit using this bullet for this reason after about 6 deer. I quit using it on hogs after I found that it didn't penetrate reliably on the shield of big hogs.

I agree with MLV that the 457193 Flatnose at 420 grains is a much better hunting bullet. It has given complete side to side penetration on every deer or hog I have ever shot with it. This is on more than a dozen animals that I have shot personally.

The heavier 520 grain roundnose and the 535 grain Postell are simply more accurate than the lighter bullets in my Sharps. They hit harder, and carry more energy downrange, and THEY SHOOT ALL THE WAY THROUGH FROM ANY ANGLE. I have shot completely through deer and hogs from brisket to bunghole with both of these bullets at 30-1, and they are reliable killers. They may not knock the animal off its feet on a side to side shot, but they go all the way through, and the animal dies within 100 yards if you have a decent hit. You can in fact eat all the way to the bullet hole--they don't tear up meat. They kill an animal graveyard dead. I haven't been able to detect any greater killing power in a flatnose bullet than the roundnose, and I've killed my share with each, believe me.

I'm not slamming anybody, I'm simply sharing what I have seen and done with these rifles. I have the molds, I have the rifles, and the cartridges in my cartridge belt when I go hunting are either a 530 grain roundnosed paper patch bullet at 30-1, or a Lyman Postell cast from the same alloy. Experience has brought me to this point. Millions of dead buffalo tell us something, if we think about it. Shoot straight, rdnck.

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OMD
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Post by OMD »

Hello MLV,

Did you get a greater point blank range with the Lyman 457122HP than with the Lyman 457143?

I'm planning to hunt antelope in Wyoming next fall with my military sharps (45-70). I'd like to develop a load with a decent point blank range and then work with the sights for ranges beyond the point blank. I have a Lyman 457124, but I've been considering a 457122 for hunting.

I have not decided whether I'll be hunting with black or smokeless this coming fall and I know it makes a difference.

Thanks,
Owen
MLV
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Post by MLV »

I have never shot the 330 HP past 100 yards so I can't give you any "point blank" figures. I've never shot anything with a BPCR past 150 yards anyway and that includes using one in Africa.

rdnck: Don't doubt what you say at all, but in the depredation hunt I particated in at Thunder Ranch I shot about six whitetails myself and saw another two dozen or so shot with 457122 cast of 1-20. We never recovered a bullet. All penetrated completely. For those little Hill Country whitetails its probably a decent enough bullet. Here in Montana, I've never had one go all the way through a mulie. Ones from my mold shoot OK but not great from my Shiloh .45-70. About three inch groups at 100 yards.

All that said, I personally use the 457125 when hunting with the .45-70, and I've seen them penetrate bison completely from all angles. And also personally, nowadays when I hunt its usually with the .50-70, although Clint Smith, Bob Glodt and myself are planning a bison hunt next year where we all use original Sharps .45-70s.
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Post by MLV »

Forgot Something...... Those wild hogs in Texas are something else again. Last year with my own eyes (with the aid of binoculars) I saw a .45 Colt bullet from a lever gun bounce off one's shoulder. The guide and I were watching while another hunter shot from about 50 yards. I said, "What was that?" and the guide said, "That was the bullet!" After the hog was dead we searched the grass in front of it and sure enough found the bullet. It was a 225 grain Winchester Silvertip and near perfectly expanded. I'd want a 520 grain .45-70 for those critters.
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Post by OMD »

Thanks MLV -- your comments give me something to think about.
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Post by 44magnum »

Those winchester silvertips are not the best for hunting. Just bought and loaded some hard 300gr lasercast bullets. Loaded them with 25gr H110 and a CCI magnum primer. Getting 1280 fps out of my 5 1/2 bisley vaquero. These bullets sure can penetrate. Shot one through an 8" elm tree limb in my back yard.
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Kelley O.Roos
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Post by Kelley O.Roos »

MLV,

The chest and shoulder area of pigs is just like armor plating for when they fight with each other. Pigs heart is low and just behind the front leg.

Kelley O. 8)
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JAGG
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Post by JAGG »

Put a knife to them there hemotoma's and soak them in cold salt water and eat ! Yum Yum ! I use either the 315gr rcbs GC flatnose or the Gould 122 bullet either HP or plugged ! And the 457124 round nose 380grs bullet for anything that i should be shooting at with a single shot rifle ! 1 to 20 alloy is the only thing that will make them bullet holes touch in my TD's, from 1640fps to 1350fps in a long tom ! Those big slow moving bullets of 450 to 550gr are for the really heavy game like Buff and are to heavy for them at times ! Or for Big Bears ,Which i'm not hunting with a single shot ! JAGG
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