I remember many moons ago the heated debates on the old message board about the 45-110 & 45-120. Well, has any noticed on E-bay the ammo box? It is for a 2 7/8 casing, 500 gr bullet & 120 grains of BP. Made by Winchester. Not trying to rehash old wounds, just wanted to show something that many might not have ever seen.
E-bay item #3636515420
Bob
45-110/120 ammo box
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Kenny Wasserburger
- Posts: 4740
- Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:53 pm
- Location: Gillette, Wyoming
Bob,
It makes for some interesting speculation does it not.
Below Reprinted in Full are 2 posts I made on shooters some time back I think it may of been last year in Oct or Nov.
It is here in full and sheds alot of light on the whole 45-120 issue.
I have devoted an entire Chapter in my BPCP book to this very subject.
Kenny W.
Frank Mayer and the 45-120-550
As perhaps many of you know over the years, there has been a good bit of speculation on the 45-120 Sharps. UMC or Better known as Union Metallic Cartridge Co shows in their records that the 45-3 ¼ inch case was not made until 1884. Hence the argument over Sharps having originally chambered rifles with 3 ¼ chambers. It is also well known that in 1881 Sharps Closed its doors for good. Make no mistake; there are a good many examples of original Sharps rifles with 3 ¼ chambers now in existence. Gun or rifle cranks are much the same now as they were back then, I suspect.
In the book wrote about Mayer, called The Buffalo Harvest, Charles Roth is the author. He relates what Mayer told him when he first met him in 1932. Frank Mayer died in 1954 22 years later at the age of 104. This makes Mayer 82 years old when Roth met him and set down the account of Mayer’s buffalo hunting career. Many have chose to discredit Mayer’s personal accounts of his 45-120-550 Sharps, citing that he was an old man and misremember certain important facts. Mayer by all accounts was a Real rifle crank of the era, I doubt he was the total senile man that Frank Sellers sort of leads one to believe in his book on the Sharps Rifles.
Sellers book, is still the best written and researched book on the subject of Sharps rifles. However, I am beginning to think that Sellers and Mayer were both right! I have since, I was in Big Timber been doing some research on this subject with what books I have. And have come upon some interesting information. On the back jacket of Roth’s book he makes statements to Mayer using the 3 ¼ inch case Sharps rounds for buffalo hunting. These statements are Roth’s and his alone. While in Mayer’s personal narrative he never mentions a 3 ¼ case length, I am beginning to think that Roth made some incorrect assumptions. Roth in doing so has actually been the cause to the doubt cast on Mayer’s accounts and recollections, all these years. Mayer makes mention of his favorite rifle being the 45-120-550 sharps many times in the book. Roth was perhaps not a student of the rifle but a admirer of Mayer and the only 45-120 that he knew of most likely was the common 45-120 3 ¼ case that Winchester loaded. Mayer also gave an account of using not one but 2 40-90-420 Sharps rifles and makes mention that he had bought a second one along with a 40-70 for smaller game hunting. He makes clear mention that the second rifle is a bottleneck cartridge. Roth states that Mayer’s 40-90 was 3 ¼ case length and Again I think this is due to Roth’s lack of Knowledge on Sharps Cartridges not a incorrect accounting from Mayer.
Now the Plot thickens, Sharps company records never show a 3 ¼ inch chambering offered. And Sellers is very vocal about this and thus his reason to discount Mayer’s statments. However, a Smithsonian Expedition for buffalo tells of, a 45-120 sharps used by James McNaney of Miles City Mt. McNaney’s standing was of one of the best buffalo hunters of the area in that last season of buffalo hunting 1882-83. A Mr. William T Hornady an official of the National Museum gives a account of McNaney’s Gear used on this hunt. This pretty much tells me that even though a 3 ¼ inch case was not available till 1884 that does not mean there was not a 45-120 sharps used on buffalo. More evidence surfaces to support the 45-120-550 in Seller’s book. Page 281 gives a partial account right out of a Sharps Catalog circa 1879. And I Quote:
“in our Sporting 45 Caliber Rifles, chambered for the 2-7/8th Shell, holding 100 to 120 grs of powder (capacity of shell be largely dependent upon grade of powder used, and the care exercised in slowly filling it.)” It would appear that Sellers missed this important bit of information when discounting Mayer’s narrative.
Here is more information that would give credence to Mayer’s 45-120-550 claim. On Page 280 of Sellers book he shows a 1878 Borchardt Sharps one of 13 made for Frank Hyde. Hyde was a well known Creedmoor Shooter and agent of the Sharps Rifle Company. The Records Show that Hyde special ordered these rifles to be Chambered with a 45 caliber 2-7/8th case for a attempt at better Long Range Performance in Creedmoor matches. Also listed is the fact that UMC loaded the Ammo especially for these rifles with a 125-gr. charge of Powder and a special 650-gr. paper patched bullet! If UMC could get 125 gr of powder in these balloon head cases and a 650-gr. bullet then I would think that it would be no sweat to get 120 gr. of powder and a 550 gr. bullet into the same case. Why Sellers misses these important bits of information shows me that while he is a great researcher he is not a shooter. I have personally been able to get over 120 grs of Fg Elephant BP into a 45-110 solid head case, with a bit of compression and a PP bullet of 550 or 500 grs would be easy to load.
So to me it looks like Frank Mayer did indeed use a 45-120-550 sharps on the buffalo he hunted. But I think it’s a very good bet that Mayer used a 45 2-7/8th Sharps Cartridge. Mayer being just what he said he was, a rifle crank, would of used what at the time was considered the biggest and badest Sharps cartridge around. So perhaps Frank Mayer can rest easier, Looks like he and Frank Sellers were both Right.
Kenny Wasserburger
Knight Commander FES
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
It makes for some interesting speculation does it not.
Below Reprinted in Full are 2 posts I made on shooters some time back I think it may of been last year in Oct or Nov.
It is here in full and sheds alot of light on the whole 45-120 issue.
I have devoted an entire Chapter in my BPCP book to this very subject.
Kenny W.
Frank Mayer and the 45-120-550
As perhaps many of you know over the years, there has been a good bit of speculation on the 45-120 Sharps. UMC or Better known as Union Metallic Cartridge Co shows in their records that the 45-3 ¼ inch case was not made until 1884. Hence the argument over Sharps having originally chambered rifles with 3 ¼ chambers. It is also well known that in 1881 Sharps Closed its doors for good. Make no mistake; there are a good many examples of original Sharps rifles with 3 ¼ chambers now in existence. Gun or rifle cranks are much the same now as they were back then, I suspect.
In the book wrote about Mayer, called The Buffalo Harvest, Charles Roth is the author. He relates what Mayer told him when he first met him in 1932. Frank Mayer died in 1954 22 years later at the age of 104. This makes Mayer 82 years old when Roth met him and set down the account of Mayer’s buffalo hunting career. Many have chose to discredit Mayer’s personal accounts of his 45-120-550 Sharps, citing that he was an old man and misremember certain important facts. Mayer by all accounts was a Real rifle crank of the era, I doubt he was the total senile man that Frank Sellers sort of leads one to believe in his book on the Sharps Rifles.
Sellers book, is still the best written and researched book on the subject of Sharps rifles. However, I am beginning to think that Sellers and Mayer were both right! I have since, I was in Big Timber been doing some research on this subject with what books I have. And have come upon some interesting information. On the back jacket of Roth’s book he makes statements to Mayer using the 3 ¼ inch case Sharps rounds for buffalo hunting. These statements are Roth’s and his alone. While in Mayer’s personal narrative he never mentions a 3 ¼ case length, I am beginning to think that Roth made some incorrect assumptions. Roth in doing so has actually been the cause to the doubt cast on Mayer’s accounts and recollections, all these years. Mayer makes mention of his favorite rifle being the 45-120-550 sharps many times in the book. Roth was perhaps not a student of the rifle but a admirer of Mayer and the only 45-120 that he knew of most likely was the common 45-120 3 ¼ case that Winchester loaded. Mayer also gave an account of using not one but 2 40-90-420 Sharps rifles and makes mention that he had bought a second one along with a 40-70 for smaller game hunting. He makes clear mention that the second rifle is a bottleneck cartridge. Roth states that Mayer’s 40-90 was 3 ¼ case length and Again I think this is due to Roth’s lack of Knowledge on Sharps Cartridges not a incorrect accounting from Mayer.
Now the Plot thickens, Sharps company records never show a 3 ¼ inch chambering offered. And Sellers is very vocal about this and thus his reason to discount Mayer’s statments. However, a Smithsonian Expedition for buffalo tells of, a 45-120 sharps used by James McNaney of Miles City Mt. McNaney’s standing was of one of the best buffalo hunters of the area in that last season of buffalo hunting 1882-83. A Mr. William T Hornady an official of the National Museum gives a account of McNaney’s Gear used on this hunt. This pretty much tells me that even though a 3 ¼ inch case was not available till 1884 that does not mean there was not a 45-120 sharps used on buffalo. More evidence surfaces to support the 45-120-550 in Seller’s book. Page 281 gives a partial account right out of a Sharps Catalog circa 1879. And I Quote:
“in our Sporting 45 Caliber Rifles, chambered for the 2-7/8th Shell, holding 100 to 120 grs of powder (capacity of shell be largely dependent upon grade of powder used, and the care exercised in slowly filling it.)” It would appear that Sellers missed this important bit of information when discounting Mayer’s narrative.
Here is more information that would give credence to Mayer’s 45-120-550 claim. On Page 280 of Sellers book he shows a 1878 Borchardt Sharps one of 13 made for Frank Hyde. Hyde was a well known Creedmoor Shooter and agent of the Sharps Rifle Company. The Records Show that Hyde special ordered these rifles to be Chambered with a 45 caliber 2-7/8th case for a attempt at better Long Range Performance in Creedmoor matches. Also listed is the fact that UMC loaded the Ammo especially for these rifles with a 125-gr. charge of Powder and a special 650-gr. paper patched bullet! If UMC could get 125 gr of powder in these balloon head cases and a 650-gr. bullet then I would think that it would be no sweat to get 120 gr. of powder and a 550 gr. bullet into the same case. Why Sellers misses these important bits of information shows me that while he is a great researcher he is not a shooter. I have personally been able to get over 120 grs of Fg Elephant BP into a 45-110 solid head case, with a bit of compression and a PP bullet of 550 or 500 grs would be easy to load.
So to me it looks like Frank Mayer did indeed use a 45-120-550 sharps on the buffalo he hunted. But I think it’s a very good bet that Mayer used a 45 2-7/8th Sharps Cartridge. Mayer being just what he said he was, a rifle crank, would of used what at the time was considered the biggest and badest Sharps cartridge around. So perhaps Frank Mayer can rest easier, Looks like he and Frank Sellers were both Right.
Kenny Wasserburger
Knight Commander FES
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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Kenny Wasserburger
- Posts: 4740
- Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:53 pm
- Location: Gillette, Wyoming
Here is the 2nd Post I made on shooters about the 45-120 subject.
More on Frank Mayer and the 45-120-550 Sharps
Thanks go to Tommy4toes for the articles he sent me. The one is just more recounting of buffalo hunting not much on ammo. The second article wrote by Mayer, in the Dec 1934 issue of the American Rifleman is called making the big bores shoot. I first misunderstood the context of the article, Mayer does not mention at all the English powder he was so fond of when he was hunting buffalo, and he made mention of in the book. I found this very confusing. I then realized that Mayer, Was telling the shooter of 1934, how to make these rifles shoot with materials available at that time. Mayer tells of new brass that required rechambering of the rifles, and said the thin shells that Sharps sold and as he understood where made by them were no longer available. This of course is not correct but Mayer, is just recounting what he understood, Sharps did offer brass and loaded ammo but the UMC Company made these for them. Here again perhaps is were some of the later day scholars were getting the ammo to tear apart Mayer’s acounts. Mayer goes on to talk about solid head shells and about everlasting cases. He makes specific mention of Ideal’s John H. Barlow who furnished Mayer with everlasting type of brass for his rifles. Mayer also makes specific mention of RECHAMBERING rifles for the thicker and heavier brass. He also goes on to mention that these are not entirely to his liking. Mayer also makes mention of American Dead Shot BP as the best powder to use and he goes into detail of using Duplex loading with FFG or FFFG and that FFFg was preferred. Mayer is talking about loading a old buffalo rifle with 1934 available components. Mayer makes no specific mention of 3-1/4 cases in the text of the article but a small graph gives data on these 3-1/4 cases and that 45 3-1/4 were of special order this perhaps only clouds the issue more.
Mayer also give a good bit of information on paper patching and what was required for patch thickness. And his reasons for them. He gives some real good information on this, a proper template is shown and method of patching bullets. Mayer also makes mention of SCALE WEIGHING POWDER not volume weighing but using a scale to weigh charges. It would appear that American Dead Shoot Powder of Fg reacted favorably to Duplexing with FFFg and perhaps was not the quality as his often spoke of English powder he used in his buffalo hunting days. All of this is quite interesting it would appear that powder quality issues were much the same then as today, even when Mayer was hunting he searched for best quality powder for his needs.
Lastly, Mayer talks about the accuracy of PP vrs. Grease Grove bullets he feeling is that PP bullets were more accurate then any GG bullet and had fired 1000’s of PP bullets and knew this as such. While I don’t fully agree with Frank Mayer on this aspect of BPCR shooting I really enjoyed reading his accounts and his methods of loading these old rifles. While Mayer makes specific mention of weighing charges, I don’t know if he did this while buffalo running or not? The article is for 1934 rifle cranks to go out and load these neat old rifles, not really a accounting of what he used on the buffalo plains. It does give some insights into Mayer’s thinking and that of course is very interesting.
I hope everyone has enjoyed this bit of scholarly research as much as I did doing it.
Kenny Wasserburger
Knight Commander FES
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
[/u]
More on Frank Mayer and the 45-120-550 Sharps
Thanks go to Tommy4toes for the articles he sent me. The one is just more recounting of buffalo hunting not much on ammo. The second article wrote by Mayer, in the Dec 1934 issue of the American Rifleman is called making the big bores shoot. I first misunderstood the context of the article, Mayer does not mention at all the English powder he was so fond of when he was hunting buffalo, and he made mention of in the book. I found this very confusing. I then realized that Mayer, Was telling the shooter of 1934, how to make these rifles shoot with materials available at that time. Mayer tells of new brass that required rechambering of the rifles, and said the thin shells that Sharps sold and as he understood where made by them were no longer available. This of course is not correct but Mayer, is just recounting what he understood, Sharps did offer brass and loaded ammo but the UMC Company made these for them. Here again perhaps is were some of the later day scholars were getting the ammo to tear apart Mayer’s acounts. Mayer goes on to talk about solid head shells and about everlasting cases. He makes specific mention of Ideal’s John H. Barlow who furnished Mayer with everlasting type of brass for his rifles. Mayer also makes specific mention of RECHAMBERING rifles for the thicker and heavier brass. He also goes on to mention that these are not entirely to his liking. Mayer also makes mention of American Dead Shot BP as the best powder to use and he goes into detail of using Duplex loading with FFG or FFFG and that FFFg was preferred. Mayer is talking about loading a old buffalo rifle with 1934 available components. Mayer makes no specific mention of 3-1/4 cases in the text of the article but a small graph gives data on these 3-1/4 cases and that 45 3-1/4 were of special order this perhaps only clouds the issue more.
Mayer also give a good bit of information on paper patching and what was required for patch thickness. And his reasons for them. He gives some real good information on this, a proper template is shown and method of patching bullets. Mayer also makes mention of SCALE WEIGHING POWDER not volume weighing but using a scale to weigh charges. It would appear that American Dead Shoot Powder of Fg reacted favorably to Duplexing with FFFg and perhaps was not the quality as his often spoke of English powder he used in his buffalo hunting days. All of this is quite interesting it would appear that powder quality issues were much the same then as today, even when Mayer was hunting he searched for best quality powder for his needs.
Lastly, Mayer talks about the accuracy of PP vrs. Grease Grove bullets he feeling is that PP bullets were more accurate then any GG bullet and had fired 1000’s of PP bullets and knew this as such. While I don’t fully agree with Frank Mayer on this aspect of BPCR shooting I really enjoyed reading his accounts and his methods of loading these old rifles. While Mayer makes specific mention of weighing charges, I don’t know if he did this while buffalo running or not? The article is for 1934 rifle cranks to go out and load these neat old rifles, not really a accounting of what he used on the buffalo plains. It does give some insights into Mayer’s thinking and that of course is very interesting.
I hope everyone has enjoyed this bit of scholarly research as much as I did doing it.
Kenny Wasserburger
Knight Commander FES
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
[/u]
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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nohorse
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:56 pm
- Location: Vicksburg, MS
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Kenny: I remember reading these posts back during some of the great Shooters.com Frank Maher debates. Thanks for resurrecting them as they are well written and pleasurable reading. I also appreciate the perspective they present.
Shiloh #1!
Guns:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, 30 inch heavy octagon with MVA mid range soule and MVA spirit level sights
45-70 Hartford Model, 30 inch heavy octagon with Axtell Hartford Transition and MVA combination sights [the hunter!!]
Guns:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, 30 inch heavy octagon with MVA mid range soule and MVA spirit level sights
45-70 Hartford Model, 30 inch heavy octagon with Axtell Hartford Transition and MVA combination sights [the hunter!!]
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MLV
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nohorse
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There ain't no doubt Frank was a good story teller and could "spin a good yarn." MLV, like ya said, it kinda sounds like a good chuckle from a man that spent a good part of his youth in the wilds and dealing with horses, buff, etc. Reminds me of a story that my grandad would have told with a keen eye and a lot of wit! Thanks for zeroing in on the humorous aspect of it.
Shiloh #1!
Guns:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, 30 inch heavy octagon with MVA mid range soule and MVA spirit level sights
45-70 Hartford Model, 30 inch heavy octagon with Axtell Hartford Transition and MVA combination sights [the hunter!!]
Guns:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, 30 inch heavy octagon with MVA mid range soule and MVA spirit level sights
45-70 Hartford Model, 30 inch heavy octagon with Axtell Hartford Transition and MVA combination sights [the hunter!!]
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Lee Stone
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From what I have gleaned from the various books I have been reading lately, I think Kenny has put it together beautifully. And I have to agree with Nohorse. My impression when I first read the account of "riding the buffalo in his book and my readings since, I believe Frank Mayer was doing to the gun reading public of, that time the same thing that MLV was doing to the dudes on the dude ranch.....pulling their collective legs with tongue firmly planted in cheek. It is my belief that Mr. Mayer most likely felt that if anyone chose to interpret that story as a factual account, well that was their problem. Naturally I have nothing factual to base my belief on, it is simply gut feeling from reading his book. And from many years of riding horses and from watching others ride, and/or try to ride bulls (they just are not shaped right for riding in my opinion). Never having seen it, I can only imagine what the reaction of a wild buffalo bull would be to suddenly having a man astride his back. But I don't think he would like it.
Lee Stone
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powderburner
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then on the other hand ,if you had an option of being mixed thoroughly with the prarie and grabbing a buffalo for a ride you just mite make up your mind you prefer the latter AND if the outcome was good you would have a good story and if not you could help fertilize the prarie.
As my old father in law say ROCKS MAKE GOOD RIDERS and he would know he was born in eastern mt. in 1910.
As my old father in law say ROCKS MAKE GOOD RIDERS and he would know he was born in eastern mt. in 1910.
Dean Becker
only one gun and they are 74 s
3rd asst. flunky,high desert chapter F.E.S.
MYWEIGH scale merchant
reclining member of O-G-A-N-T
only one gun and they are 74 s
3rd asst. flunky,high desert chapter F.E.S.
MYWEIGH scale merchant
reclining member of O-G-A-N-T
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Buckskinner
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:47 am
- Location: Boise Idaho
Bull riding
Kenny
And what were you supposed to do when this BULL stopped running?
Do you suppose he might point you then way home.
Buckskinner
And what were you supposed to do when this BULL stopped running?
Do you suppose he might point you then way home.
Buckskinner
Here's to the American Front line men and women where every they are!!!
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nohorse
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Well, all this goes to show that it doesn't matter when or where..when ya start talking about Frank's book it's gonna generate debate and discussion. Regardless of what ya believe, the man's book is of considerable interest. There's a lot to be said for a book like that....just wish he was still around to provide his perspective and clarify a few of those stories.
Shiloh #1!
Guns:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, 30 inch heavy octagon with MVA mid range soule and MVA spirit level sights
45-70 Hartford Model, 30 inch heavy octagon with Axtell Hartford Transition and MVA combination sights [the hunter!!]
Guns:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, 30 inch heavy octagon with MVA mid range soule and MVA spirit level sights
45-70 Hartford Model, 30 inch heavy octagon with Axtell Hartford Transition and MVA combination sights [the hunter!!]
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Kenny Wasserburger
- Posts: 4740
- Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:53 pm
- Location: Gillette, Wyoming
Buckskinner,
I am a bit confused????? No where in my post do I mention me riding any buffalos?? Nor did I mention anything about Mayer's tale of that subject. However I tend to agree that part of the narative is a bit on the Tall Side.
What I was posting on was the 45-120 issues. I would suggest you Direct your buffalo riding Questions to MLV as he was the one that posted first on this subject. Mike appears to have more experiance at the Joshing part !!! And way more, at teasing dudes! :^)
I have never worked on a Dude Ranch, I was raised on a real working cattle ranch that my folks still today run. I must admit I have rode more then one critter with hair on it but! Never a buffalo. The Saddle I rode was my granddads and my Dads, it was made in the mid 1870's and is a HAM. My Bridle is US Cav Marked and came from the 6th US Cav at Fort Robinson Neb. My Great Grandfather Jacob's Ranch is in the very northwest Corner of Neb. Less then 300 yards from his grave is the spot were Buffalo Bill killed the Cheyenne Chief Yellow Hand, in the History books (the good ones) this little tussel is called The Battle of Warbonnet Creek, and took place on the Wasserburger Ranch about 6 weeks after the Custer Fight. The place today is Called Montrose. And My cousin Jacob aka Jake Wasserburger Still owns that ranch.
Folks today love the history of the Old west, And I am one of them. But hell I dont have to pretend I am a cowboy, or have Sass # My family Was the REAL DEAL.
My Great Grandpa Charles Zerbst Homesteaded just 20 miles north of the ranch I was raised on in 1881. We know for a fact he killed 2 men to make that start as they had stolen 50 head of horses off him Near Ft Robinson and he trailed them to the Cheyenne River and got his horses back. He was a real hard man when wronged, as the story goes.
There are a few retried cops down in Phonix Az, might tell a story about a young 19 year old Wyoming Cowboy drove a brown chevy pickup, wore wranglers and tony lama bullhide boots and a ballcap, that four old boys tried to mug. Come to find out the cowboy was packing a loaded Navy Colt and never got mugged eather, that took place in 1981 so the story goes. IT seems the line breeds true. Some folks should never bring a knife and chain to a gunfight. The muggers told the cops that theyoung fella had given them the impression he was more then willing to use the Colt.
That story I know anit bout riding buffalos but it damm sure is true.
Kenny Wasserburger
I am a bit confused????? No where in my post do I mention me riding any buffalos?? Nor did I mention anything about Mayer's tale of that subject. However I tend to agree that part of the narative is a bit on the Tall Side.
What I was posting on was the 45-120 issues. I would suggest you Direct your buffalo riding Questions to MLV as he was the one that posted first on this subject. Mike appears to have more experiance at the Joshing part !!! And way more, at teasing dudes! :^)
I have never worked on a Dude Ranch, I was raised on a real working cattle ranch that my folks still today run. I must admit I have rode more then one critter with hair on it but! Never a buffalo. The Saddle I rode was my granddads and my Dads, it was made in the mid 1870's and is a HAM. My Bridle is US Cav Marked and came from the 6th US Cav at Fort Robinson Neb. My Great Grandfather Jacob's Ranch is in the very northwest Corner of Neb. Less then 300 yards from his grave is the spot were Buffalo Bill killed the Cheyenne Chief Yellow Hand, in the History books (the good ones) this little tussel is called The Battle of Warbonnet Creek, and took place on the Wasserburger Ranch about 6 weeks after the Custer Fight. The place today is Called Montrose. And My cousin Jacob aka Jake Wasserburger Still owns that ranch.
Folks today love the history of the Old west, And I am one of them. But hell I dont have to pretend I am a cowboy, or have Sass # My family Was the REAL DEAL.
My Great Grandpa Charles Zerbst Homesteaded just 20 miles north of the ranch I was raised on in 1881. We know for a fact he killed 2 men to make that start as they had stolen 50 head of horses off him Near Ft Robinson and he trailed them to the Cheyenne River and got his horses back. He was a real hard man when wronged, as the story goes.
There are a few retried cops down in Phonix Az, might tell a story about a young 19 year old Wyoming Cowboy drove a brown chevy pickup, wore wranglers and tony lama bullhide boots and a ballcap, that four old boys tried to mug. Come to find out the cowboy was packing a loaded Navy Colt and never got mugged eather, that took place in 1981 so the story goes. IT seems the line breeds true. Some folks should never bring a knife and chain to a gunfight. The muggers told the cops that theyoung fella had given them the impression he was more then willing to use the Colt.
That story I know anit bout riding buffalos but it damm sure is true.
Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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nohorse
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:56 pm
- Location: Vicksburg, MS
- Contact:
This is just an instance where we got side tracked a little when MLV mentioned tho other story. Kenny, I don't think it detracts, or was intended to detract, from your original and well written post. Thanks for reiterating your family history. I think ya made your point but not sure why ya decided to take a shot at SASS. Not defending 'em, but I do know a few of 'em that are good folks that also have very interesting and traditional american heritage to speak of.
Shiloh #1!
Guns:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, 30 inch heavy octagon with MVA mid range soule and MVA spirit level sights
45-70 Hartford Model, 30 inch heavy octagon with Axtell Hartford Transition and MVA combination sights [the hunter!!]
Guns:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, 30 inch heavy octagon with MVA mid range soule and MVA spirit level sights
45-70 Hartford Model, 30 inch heavy octagon with Axtell Hartford Transition and MVA combination sights [the hunter!!]
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Kenny Wasserburger
- Posts: 4740
- Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:53 pm
- Location: Gillette, Wyoming
Nohorse,
I guess I really was not taking a poke at folks in SASS just the mentality of many of them. Duds dont make the Dude a cowboy and those folks are pretty much DUDs fixtated. So dont take any offence at my teasing wantabe's.
And I dont think anything crossways over MLV's Post on the question of the buffalo ride. I was a bit confused over Buckskiners question on what I was going to do when the buffalo stopped running, and I never mentioned riding any buffalos in my posts???
guess thats the only confusion I had, I know MLV personaly and we get along quite well and I took no offense to Mikes ribbing.
Kenny Wasserburger
I guess I really was not taking a poke at folks in SASS just the mentality of many of them. Duds dont make the Dude a cowboy and those folks are pretty much DUDs fixtated. So dont take any offence at my teasing wantabe's.
And I dont think anything crossways over MLV's Post on the question of the buffalo ride. I was a bit confused over Buckskiners question on what I was going to do when the buffalo stopped running, and I never mentioned riding any buffalos in my posts???
guess thats the only confusion I had, I know MLV personaly and we get along quite well and I took no offense to Mikes ribbing.
Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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nohorse
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:56 pm
- Location: Vicksburg, MS
- Contact:
Well, in a lot of instances you are right with regard to mentality. And you are also correct in that the clothes don't make the man. And again, agreed on the duds fixation......All good points. I think you summed a lot of it up with mentality and considering for some, like yourself, its a way of life, not a weekend dress up and shoot. As usual...we are in agreement. Real cowboyin' aint dressin' the part and shootin scenarios on the weekend...when ya get down to it, it is simply darn hard work. Then again, I think a lot of the SASS shooters would agree with that. Thanks for clarifying the perspective.
Shiloh #1!
Guns:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, 30 inch heavy octagon with MVA mid range soule and MVA spirit level sights
45-70 Hartford Model, 30 inch heavy octagon with Axtell Hartford Transition and MVA combination sights [the hunter!!]
Guns:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, 30 inch heavy octagon with MVA mid range soule and MVA spirit level sights
45-70 Hartford Model, 30 inch heavy octagon with Axtell Hartford Transition and MVA combination sights [the hunter!!]
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Buckskinner
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:47 am
- Location: Boise Idaho
Buffalo Run
Kenny
The comment about the Buffalo ride was not directed at you, it was a intended to be at the story of the ride.
Thanks for your family history though, I am really interested in early western history. That leads to a couple of questions for you. Did I read on one of your posts that you were a Hawken man also? The second question is, about how far do you live from Cody?
On Issue No. 40 the cover page is a photo of what could be a place a old Buffalo hunter could waylay a bunch of Baffalo. Think Steve Garby took the photo. So You know where that is located at?
I don't have any more time to follow this tonight but will pick up this at a later date if you don't mind.
Gary
The comment about the Buffalo ride was not directed at you, it was a intended to be at the story of the ride.
Thanks for your family history though, I am really interested in early western history. That leads to a couple of questions for you. Did I read on one of your posts that you were a Hawken man also? The second question is, about how far do you live from Cody?
On Issue No. 40 the cover page is a photo of what could be a place a old Buffalo hunter could waylay a bunch of Baffalo. Think Steve Garby took the photo. So You know where that is located at?
I don't have any more time to follow this tonight but will pick up this at a later date if you don't mind.
Gary
Here's to the American Front line men and women where every they are!!!