45-70 case deformation

Bo Alley · Post by **Bo Alley** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:41 am

Need some assistance here , whats new!

1st BPCR reloads were WW from the old scroungers I bought to test the #1. NO problem worked fine (following all the guidelines on this forum and elseware). Using a single stage RCBS press with their 3 die 45-70 Govt set and a Montana compression die.

For new brass, bought 250 starline cases, took 50 of the same length, 2.102 and although notes say 'sized' may not have been full length because I remember they all chambered OK. Then expanded case neck (just enough to start bullet), primed, used a 24" drop tube with 70gr of GOEX FF, compressed using .060 veggie wads to get the desired OAL and seat Classic's M1881's just past the last groove. These loads shot fine (for my current ability). Did not notice any deformations while cleaning the cases. There were some 'streaks' of discoloration on the brass but I disregarded those (?).

Anyway, lubed and did the de-cap and full length size with the RCBS die and then when I went to trim, notice same deformation pattern on all the cases.
The worst one had 8 distinct elongtated indentations about .2" long around the circumference beginning at aprox 1.4 inches from the base of the case?? Thought the die was dirty and check it but looked OK?? Then looked at a couple of the WW cases which had been re-sized and saw no discrepancies?

So took a NEW starline case and ran it thru the sizing die and noticed some slight markings so flushed the die with MEK, and some patches and tried another couple of new cases which seemed to be fine??

Mic'd a random sample of the NEW starline cases at the location of the deformations and the OD was .485. Mic'd a couple of the spent WW case and they were .475?? Then ran a new starline case thru the sizer and mic'd sagain and it was .478. The starlines appear to have a larger dia than the WW's. Could these be problem cases for future reloading?

Bottom line, could I use these recently resized starline cases with the deformations? Frankly, Im lost, I know if the case is expanded or streched too much you should toss it, but this is the opposite situation.

Of course thanks to all on this forum and BTW, did end up getting that real NICE M821 spotting scope, used it to watch some really good shooters at the AZ state championships on Sat, incrediable..

Bo

nohorse · Post by **nohorse** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:17 am

Just a guess...but it sounds like you're using too much case lube when resizing. Are you using a liquid lube like RCBS and a roll pad? If so try using one of the spray lubes, that ended the problem for me. I never could seem to get the roll pad lube technique down consistently.

Ken Hartlein · Post by **Ken Hartlein** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:39 am

This may not be your problem but I trim all my Starline cases to 2.095, did you trim your cases?

Bo Alley · Post by **Bo Alley** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:22 am

Answer is YES to both, RCBS pad-lube and did trim to 2.095.
Looked inside the sizing die this AM with a better light and noticed
there is a very small 'lip' near the top of the die, couldn't get an accurate measurement but appeared to be around 2.1" deep? Wonder if the starlines could be bottoming out on that and actually creasing? Heck just don't know but will add some spray lube to the kit. Thanks!

Lee Stone · Post by **Lee Stone** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:36 am

Bo,

Another case lube technique you might want to try, I keep a folded cloth saturated with Ballistol on the bench and just lift the fold, insert a case and wipe it with the Ballistol and then mount it into the press. I lubes the cases just great and I don't even have to worry about wiping the lube off the finished cartridges.

Kelley O.Roos · Post by **Kelley O.Roos** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:59 am

Bo Alley,

Starline case's are harder brass and thats causing the wrinkle's. Just fire form and that'll take the wrinke's out. Fire form with a small charge of fast burning smokeless powder and use throw away bullets. Anytime you crunch brass down you'll get deformation.

Kelley O.

Lee Stone · Post by **Lee Stone** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:21 am

Kelley,

Do you think annealing the new brass first would help Bo? So far I've not experienced that wrinkly problem with my .45/90 Starline brass, but if I ever do, I wonder if annealing might help. What do you think?

Kelley O.Roos · Post by **Kelley O.Roos** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:42 am

Annealing will always help, especialy with starline, just have to watch out and becarefull when trimming to lenght.
That wrinkle is no big deal as it can be fireformed out.

Kelley O.

steve witt · Post by **steve witt** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:57 am

Bo: Kelly O. is very right in what he is telling you. I would definately go with the annealing on the Starline. Go to the Starline web site, they even suggest it might be necessary to anneal their brass as it is harder then most. They give a brief discription as how they suggest to do it. I would anneal all the cases, fireform shoot them, as suggested, check for trim length. I would also strongly suggest that you do not then need to full length resize, just neck size to a length to maintain about .002 to .003 neck tension on your bullet. regards steve witt

Ken Hartlein · Post by **Ken Hartlein** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:32 pm

Ballistol is the best case lube I've ever used, In fact I threw my RCBS pad and "greasy kid stuff" away!! I just pour a little ballistol in the cap off the can and barely dip my finger in to lube with. I've never had any problems with the starline brass, I FL size it right out of the box and then never size it again after it's been fireformed. Try this, lube one case with RCBS stuff, size it, then rub a TINY bit of Ballisto on the next one and size it!! You'll see the difference right away. I do wipe the cases down after sizing but it is MUCH easier with Ballistol.

Bo Alley · Post by **Bo Alley** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:27 pm

Well guys,
Thanks again, good lube, not too much of it, anealing and fireforming all make sense. Got to stop reading this forum so much and get out and make up some more loads! One thing am going to do is take a few new starlines to work tomorrow and get the hardness checked for reference, will post the results.

Hey Kelly, and there were a few out at the Az state shoot, how did you do? Was going to ask "which one was Kelly Roos but I was already asking too many other dumb questions (but I got answers! and that's what's nice about BPCR)

Bo

Kelley O.Roos · Post by **Kelley O.Roos** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:43 pm

Bo Alley,

Yep I was at the Az. shoot over the week end, you should have found me and we could have talked, thats easy. I posted the reselts in the anounsements dept. at the top of shooter to shooter.

Kelley O.

Kelley O.Roos · Post by **Kelley O.Roos** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:52 pm

Bo Alley,

The Az. results are in the announcement/upcoming shoots dept. above shooter to shooter was what I ment.

Kelley O.