FIXIN TO BE A SHILOH OWNER

[Cm1green]

I just ordered my first Shiloh Sharpes rifle. I ordered the 1874 Quigley as I have always liked the look of the rifle. I ordered the clambering in 45-120. I asked for full buckhorn rear sites and medium range buffalo tang sites with the standard #111 globe front sites. Nothing to fancy just the brass Escutcheons, Fire blued screws an custom bedding. Now I just wait 18 months and learn as much as possible between now and arrival time. I have started by looking up and will start ordering Lyman dies and other tools and equipment to reload as well as brass. I am looking for a good accurate round with also decent hunting application rounds that I can also shoot. I am no sniper but do enjoy pushing the envelope once in a while with all my rifles. I now own a H&R handi rifle chambered in 45-70 and do love results on big game animals I utilize a 300 grain Barnes TSX solid copper bullet with 54 grains of Reloader 7 behind the bullet and a Winchester WLR primer for ignition and moving a little over 2300 FPS. I know I will be loading black powder for this rifle and will never see these velocities but would like input and suggestions on anything I can get for my new adventure with the Quigley 45-120. All help and suggestions are well appreciated. Thanks all in advance looking forward to chatting.

[BFD]

I am going to beat 27 other people to the punch and sugggest that you reconsider that chambering. The 120 was never a sharps factory cartridge and it is - BY FAR - the most difficult of all chamberings to resell. You may not care about either point, but they are facts for a reason. More people regret choosing the .45-120 than any other chambering. If you want bigger than the 70, then the 90 (2.4") is a FAR more popular chambering, and again, for a reason. It works. The 100 (2.6") and 110 (2 7/8") are both better choices the the 120 but the 90 is, by a long shot the favorite over all but the 70.


You have some time before you are totally committed to that chamber. Think about it carefully. You will find very, very few folks that recommend the 120.

[Don McDowell]

In addition to the points Brent brought out, consider the cost of feeding that thing, brass life should be fine, but if and when you can find that 3 1/4 brass it's going to cost over 3 bucks a pop. You'll have more tied up in 50 rounds of brass for that 3 1/4 than you will for nearly 200 45-90's

[rdnck]

BFD is correct. The 45-120 is a certified hammer, but you will sell the rifle long before you shoot it enough to learn to appreciate it. Shoot straight, rdnck.

[Cm1green]

I am not worried when it comes to resale, this rifle as all of my weapons stay in the family. Cost of rounds as is always a bit costly no matter what I shoot as I try to use the best combo. My 45-70 rounds at my cost are $65.00 for 20 rounds. So your points are appreciated as valid. Popular to one may not be to another. I understand that it was not a sharps cartridge originally but is there any pros and cons to this cartridge other than what you gentlemen have informed me about ie terrible trajectory, crappy accuracy. I understand the cost issue. Were these cartridges bad at burning powder. Why would the 110 be better because I am open to making changes as I already did this morning after reading another post on sites. I changed from mid range buffalo soul sites to long range buffalo soul sites.

[Cm1green]

I am not worried when it comes to resale, this rifle as all of my weapons stay in the family. Cost of rounds as is always a bit costly no matter what I shoot as I try to use the best combo. My 45-70 rounds at my cost are $65.00 for 20 rounds. So your points are appreciated as valid. Popular to one may not be to another. I understand that it was not a sharps cartridge originally but is there any pros and cons to this cartridge other than what you gentlemen have informed me about ie terrible trajectory, crappy accuracy. I understand the cost issue. Were these cartridges bad at burning powder. Why would the 110 be better because I am open to making changes as I already did this morning after reading another post on sites. I changed from mid range buffalo soul sites to long range buffalo soul sites.

[Ray Newman]

Back in 1986, just before I ordered my #1 I thought I needed a .45-120 --that is until I shot one. A Fellow Shooter had a #1 in 120 and from what I recall, I never saw him shoot that rifle very much. On a whim, I tried it. Three rounds was all it took to make me realize a .45-2.4" (AKA .45-90) was the way to go. Even with a 34" heavy barrel and a 500 grain bullet, that rifle was just too uncomfortable to shoot and very hard to control shooting off hand, prone, from X-sticks, etc.

Have not regretted purchasing two .45-2.4" Shiloh's. Since you are already set up for a .45-70, give serious consideration to that calibre. I have a few .45-70's and have never felt that the round could not do the job if/when called upon. If you have a place to shoot long range (800+ yards), the .45-2.4" might be a better round, but with some careful reloading and trigger time the .45-70 will also work at long range.

[Kurt]

My first reproduction Sharps cartridge rifle was the Pedersoli Quigley rifle when Cabela's first stocked them chambered in the .45-120/3-1/4. The recoil was stiff but I don't think is was any worse then the .50-2.5 Shiloh with the 720 grain bullet I use for it. The 120 shot very well but it did not shoot as well as my other Shiloh's I have.
I have seen two 120's at the range I shoot at and one used smokeless reduced loads because the recoil was to much for him and he ended up with a walnut ahead of the action. The other guy shot black powder and his first day of using it he showed me the rifle and I asked what is the load your using? he said I'm only loading 75 grains of 1F Goex. The next question I asked why and are you using any wads and he said I want to start with a light load and work up and I have a wad holding the powder down on the primer.......I said don't shoot it!! but he shot it anyway. A short time later he came over and asked me if he could use my wiping rod, I asked are you done shooting already? he said no, I have a case I cant extract. I said you rung the chamber, he said I don't think so I think the fouling is getting worse with every shot for the last few I fired, I said YUP!!

Kurt

[Ray Newman]

As for accuracy, in my 35 + years of shooting Black Powder cartridge rifles, I never heard a .45-120 shooter claim the round was "accurate". I have seen a few shot, and the accuracy did not impress me. Somewhere in the back of my mind 3-4 MOA at 100 and 200 yards?? Now it could be that the.45-120 rifles I saw shot need a heavier/longer bullet than 500 grains. But if that is/was the case, then a Shooter feels increased recoil. Also with Black Powder, fouling control is critical-- the more powder, the more fouling -- and if fouling is not controlled, the barrel will lead.

Never heard of a silhouette shooter utilizing a .45-120 and never read of one in the published match results in the Black Powder Cartridge News and other publications. The club I belong to has Black Powder silhouette and from what I was told by participants and I observed, the .40's and 'lighter" .45's rule. In fact two .45-90 silhouette shooters once told me that the .45-90 is almost too much rifle for that sport.

The largest round I have is a .45-110 in a 34" barreled, 13+ lbs. M1878 Sharps-Borchardt. Comfortable to shoot with a 500 or a 540 grain bullet and 90 grains of FFg powder, but it really shines with 107 grains and 540 grain bullet. Down side: even at 13+ lbs., it becomes tiring after awhile (30+ rounds) and a pound of powder only loads 65 rounds.

[Kurt]

Ray, last fall I started to shoot silhouettes and I used the .45-90 and I said it is more rifle then needed for this type of shooting and I had a .40-65 build this summer for this. But the 2.4 has moved me in the AAA in a few matches I shot this year. Next season I will use the .40-65.
Your right there are better calibers then the 120. There is nothing that will turn a shooter away from the black powder shooting sport faster then getting the first rifle with a caliber to large. Even if the rifle is very accurate and if the shooter using that rifle can not handle the recoil it will not do well for them.

[Cm1green]

As far as recoil goes Gents I am no slouch when it comes to shooting. I don’t shoot to be better than anyone or compete I shoot out of personal pleasure and to put animal meat in the freezer rather than buying steroid induced meat at the store. I own several large calibre rifles to include 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag and also a .50 CAL Muzzle loader which I use a 140 grain Pyrodex charge in to push 270 grain Federal Premium B.O.R. Loc bullet at 1900 FPS. I have fired other large rifles in my life time a little shoulder pain with a good group is good. 2 boxes of shells thru the 7 Mag to work up a great Load is a little uncomfortable on the high end of the powder range when ya get there but satisfying when ya get the right Load. I do enjoy all the thoughts and advice as this is what I was looking for thanks all and the continued discussion is greatly appreciated.

[Kurt]

If you use the rifle for what you said above then the caliber will serve you well.
By the way....Welcome to the Shiloh madness

[bobw]

As far as recoil goes Gents I am no slouch when it comes to shooting. I don’t shoot to be better than anyone or compete I shoot out of personal pleasure and to put animal meat in the freezer rather than buying steroid induced meat at the store. I own several large calibre rifles to include 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag and also a .50 CAL Muzzle loader which I use a 140 grain Pyrodex charge in to push 270 grain Federal Premium B.O.R. Loc bullet at 1900 FPS. I have fired other large rifles in my life time a little shoulder pain with a good group is good. 2 boxes of shells thru the 7 Mag to work up a great Load is a little uncomfortable on the high end of the powder range when ya get there but satisfying when ya get the right Load. I do enjoy all the thoughts and advice as this is what I was looking for thanks all and the continued discussion is greatly appreciated.

None of your big gun loads or 50ml loads even approach the recoil level you will get from a 13 lb Quigley model with it's military rifle butt and full throttle 120 loads. A 45-2 7/8's is all you need for big in a 45. Friend of mine brought a Quigley model 45-2 7/8" to the" Q" a couple of years back he made it thru about 80 rds with the help of a Limbsaver slip on pad. He was black, blue and yellow across his shoulder and down his arm. Yes sir, a real sweetheart. I worked up a load for my brothers 45-3 1/4" this summer in a 12.5 lb Hartford model with a shotgun butt, still not what you wanna shoot more than 5-6 rds thru in a day. We buy these guns to shoot and enjoy the experience of, not to beat ourselves with. Since I got my 45-70 I haven't shot my 45 2 7/8" Business rifle to much and my 50 -3 1/4" a 1-2 times a year rifle. I don't think Shiloh will chamber a Quigley model for any other than a 45-70 or 45 2 7/8" You check with them on that. My 50-3 1/4" ??? same damned mistake you are about to make. Like I said most of us here buy these guns to shoot and enjoy not shoot to get beat up. BTDT bobw

[Kurt]

While we are on the .45-120 subject let me tell you a little story, true story . The law enforcement trains on our range and one day I was on the 200 yard range shooting my 120 and the Law was on the 100 yard range and as soon as I fired my first shot and the smoke drifter over to the 100 yard line a crowd started to gather behind me and after a few shots fired at a hanging bowling pin at 200 and making it spin vertically around the pipe it was hanging on I turned around and asked any of you want to try this rifle out? it didn't take a second asking when one young guy said I sure would like to shoot that smoker. He was a sniper on the swat squad. I asked if he ever shot a set trigger and he said no I haven't but my rifle has a fine trigger, but I walked him through on setting it and loading and unloading the rifle. Well he had his black shooting gloves on and I said you better take them off because you wont fee this trigger with them on and he said I'm used to a light trigger. I then told him don't touch the trigger before your ready to shoot the first round, he said with a smile OK. Well he put a round in the chamber closed the breach set the trigger and started to shoulder the rifle and as doing this I saw his finger go in the guard and before the rifle was in the pocket it fired. His black cap flew off his head the aviation glasses with wire temples were dangling on one ear and his eyes were twice as large looking up at me. I said take those gloves off......I reached in the ammo box and pulled out another round and said take another shot he shook his hand and said your crazy for shooting this cannon at your age
Well a bunch were laughing when he got up off the ground and I ask anyone else want to shoot this? and a little gal maybe 5' 3 or 4 said I sure would like to shoot it. I watched her shoot the shot gun with buck shot and slugs before I started shooting and she was really laying into that shot gun but handled it fine. I said you will do better shooting this rifle sitting and I turned her on a 45 degree angle and I said this will let you twist with the recoil better so it wont beat you up and I walked her through loading and the trigger and I explained the tang and front globe sights and said just center that pin and let it go. When she fired that pin exploded with the first shot. She had the biggest smile on her face and said can I shoot another one on that steel swinger? This little gal I don't think weight 120 lbs.
You should have seen that first guy get the razing after she got up.

[DAVE ROELLE]

The 120 is a world by itself -----------i have 100 rounds of beautiful new 120 brass given to me by a 120 owner------------he sold the rifle at the earliest chance, lost money and bought a 45-90
The brass works great for 45 PP work

You have time-----shoot one before you have the rifle in production

Stay Safe

Dave