Swiss 2F vs Swiss 3F weight for same volume?

[NMLRA Past Pres.]

Hello:

Most of my BP shooting and serious testing has been with muzzle loaders.
A friend invited me to a BP cartridge shoot and.....

I have searched here and cannot find a direct answer, besides indirect comments involving "density" variations, for what I have accidentally found while working up a cartridge load using these two granulations from lots of the SAME age. Both lots are in multiple case quantities bought in 2007 from Doc Carlson. They have been properly and safely stored in a 70-degree air-conditioned, dry location.

I found that MY US 2F/Swiss No. 3 weighed MORE than Swiss US 3F for the SAME VOLUME! That seemed odd to me. Careful repeat tests confirmed it and two other grey beards, not BPCR shooters, shared that they had stumbled into the same thing, but did not know WHY.

My goal is to fill the case volume without a wad or filler to an OAL that allows the bullet to be seated to engage the rifling.

Would appreciate any authoritative info on why the same volume of Swiss 2F with its clearly coarser grains appears to be heavier than Swiss 3F.

Many thanks. Kevin Tinny

[Lumpy Grits]

How much was this weight difference?
Gary

[mtnfisher12]

Different Lots - Different densities.

I have lots of 1-1/2 Swiss that vary by up to 4 grains for the same volume.

[NMLRA Past Pres.]

Sorry, Lumpy, I should have included the figures:

Within plus/minus a tenth of a grain:
The coarser 2F weighed 46.1gr and the finer 3F weighed 45.4gr. That .7gr difference is only approx. 1.5%, so perhaps it is just within the tolerances.

In the old days, The Dupont Belin, Moosic engineers late '70's and later Frank Fahringer of GOEX indicated to me that DuPont and GOEX could vary up to 7% in "strength". Since well over 75% of their product went to the military, there was no other specification for either pyrotechnic or sporting use powder.

By the way, it is not a secret that the gov't had/has an entire mothballed black powder facility in case of whatever.

Perhaps the coarser 2F weighing more per volume is just reality within tolerances for a "compounded/mixed" item.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Lumpy Grits]

Load the 3f to your 2f volume, and give it a go. Really don't think that little of a difference means much.
It will shoot a good bit faster than 2f.
G.

[NMLRA Past Pres.]

Thanks, Lumpy:

Getting old, but the guns still shoot ( scary) well.

All the best,
Kevin

[Lumpy Grits]

Have a Merry Christmas
Gary

[beltfed]

I would suggest go with Weight for Weight in your comparisons.

Several yrs ago, I had gotten into trials of KIK 2f vs my usual Swiss 1.5.
Significant difference in weight per unit volume. Swiss being heavier.
When using the same Volume of the KIK as I had the Swiss I got
significantly lower velocity/and larger Extreme Spread over the Oehler.
Shot "ok" but Swiss definitely better.

When I went to the same Weight of the KIK 2f, the velocity and Extreme Spread/S.D.
were very close to the Swiss 1.5. Also, the grouping with the KIK was very close to the Swiss 1.5.
I had a trial sample of the KIK 1.5, but that powder did not perform as well as the 2f

---Too000 badddd the KIK went under


beltfed/arnie

[Yankee Bill]

Volume does not depend on granulation size. It depends on grain shape and density, of course.

Yankee Bill

PS I'll wait for neysayers.

[martinibelgian]

... And the coarser grains will always weigh more... Fg will weigh more than 1 1/2Fg

[ole pizen slinger]

I think it has to do with the way the grains "pack" into the volume.
OPS

[Sasquash]

Hi all,
Through My Pedersoli volume measure I get diferent weights between Swiss 2f and 3f.

Measure scale set to 55grs:
Swiss 3f ------55gr (avg)
Swiss 2F weights 51.5gr (average).

[Woody]

I just went through a series of tests trying to find a 3F Swiss load for my 45-70. I initially started with the same volume measurement of my 2F Swiss load. The 2F Swiss weighted 66.0 Grains and the same volume of 3F Swiss weighted 71.5 Grains. The 66 grain load was always loaded and compressed with the bullet. When I tried to compress the 3F with the bullet, I not only deformed the bullet, but I bulged the case. Had to reduce the powder charge and use a compression die to conduct the tests. Didn't find a load I liked after burning a couple of pounds of 3F, so I'm back to 2F.

Woody

[Clarence]

Woody,

My grandson won a couple pounds of 2Fg Swiss at Raton. How much compression do you load in the .45-70 (sounds like not much)? How are you setting the length-bullet into the rifling or clear of it?

Have you tried 2Fg in the .40-65?

I may try the .40-65 using whatever minimal compression that works for you in the .45-70.

Clarence

[Woody]

Clarence,

I do shoot 2F Swiss in my 40-65. I currently load a 400 grain Brooks Turkey Killer into Winchester cases, with a .060 LDPE wad and 60.5 grains of 2F Swiss. Compression comes in at .250 inch. I spark it with a CCI BR2. This lot of Swiss is 16/11/2014. Previous lots showed weight from 59 grains to 62 grains for the same basic volume. I haven't run any of these rounds through a chrono, so I can't offer it's speed. I load so the round is just short of engraving. Always loads without any camming tools. This for me is a very accurate load.

If tomorrow allows, I'll be at my local range for the next series of 2F tests in my 45-70. I've reduced the load so that compression is now more reasonable, but I'm not afraid to compress Swiss. This testing session will explore 61.5 grains to 64.5 grains by weight. Zero compression with this OAL should be around 58 grains. I'm working that way.

Woody