Sorry to ask about paper patching vs. lubed-grooved, but...

[NMLRA Past Pres.]

Title says it:

Searching here produces "Too many posts to show" results.

Have been asked by an avid, accomplished PB target shooter wishing to begin cartridge silhouette at Friendship, which is more consistently accurate for competition:
Paper patched or a naked, lubed bullet?

I told him that my 30-year old perspective was stale. I have my notes from a few hotshots of the 80's and 90's that favor one way, but....

So, APART from all the reasons in favor of one or the other, which method is more widely used by CONSISTENT winners, please? Pointing to specific threads here would also be appreciated.

Thanks,
Kevin Tinny

[Don McDowell]

Silhouette don't see a lot of paper patch shooters. Brent Danielson, Ian Egbert and Barry Miller are about the only ones I can think of that regularly run patched in silhouette matches and they all 3 do pretty well.
Paper patching isn't hard to do, but it does take a bit more attention to detail than the greasers.
Shooting greasers is pretty easy with lots and lots of information readily available, from decades of happy people. Paper patch shooting has been subjected to a ton of misinformation, that range all the way from misbegotten rifle chambers to misinformation about how to patch and load the patched bullets.
So I guess it comes down to does he want to take the road less traveled and be subjected to all the chastisement that he will get from following that path, or does he want to fall in with the crowd.

[Clarence]

Kevin,

CONSISTENT winners--grease groove.

As the other poster indicated, it is possible to get very good results with paper patch, but it involves much more persistence/dedication to detail, and possibly special chambers, for consistent good results.

Clarence

[NMLRA Past Pres.]

Thanks for the latest helpful information:

It fits my 15-year old notes and discussions with notables.

The fellow is an easy drive from Friendship and shoots other disciplines there.

Are Shiloh STANDARD chambers throated for paper, please?
If so, is such a standard chamber a compromise and do dedicated paper patch shooters perfer special throats, please? Thanks, again.

Kevin Tinny

[desert deuce]

Kevin, Clarence's reply is short and correct.

However, the changes that have occurred in the rules, targets, rifles and bullets over time seem to invite the grease grooved shooters into the winners circle more often today. There was a time when almost everyone used paper patched bullets. If you wanted to win back then you patched your bullets.

I don't think it is fair to compare results in 1875 with results in 2017. We are not competing in 1875.

The Black Powder Cartridge News not only records the end results of matches, it includes the equipment and techniques used by those winning or placing high in the matches in todays world. Ergo, if you want to know what the contemporary Champions of today are using subscribe to the Black Powder Cartridge News where you can distill from the results in competition which methods and equipment is most effective in today's matches.

[Lumpy Grits]

Thanks for the latest helpful information:

It fits my 15-year old notes and discussions with notables.

The fellow is an easy drive from Friendship and shoots other disciplines there.

Are Shiloh STANDARD chambers throated for paper, please?
If so, is such a standard chamber a compromise and do dedicated paper patch shooters perfer special throats, please? Thanks, again.

Kevin Tinny

That is a question best answered by Kirk at Shiloh. I do believe there is a dedicated PP chamber.
I do know both of my .45 std chambered Shiloh's shoot PP and GG very well.
I shoot GG because the Arthritis in my right hand makes it all but impossible to roll the paper with any consistency.
Gary

[Don McDowell]

A regular Shiloh chamber will shoot patched just fine.

[Distant Thunder]

All can I speak of is my own experience, I win more consistently when shooting paper patched bullets.
It's not even close.

The other thing I will add is that for me paper patching could not be easier. I really don't do anything special or fret over a bunch of exacting details. I just cast 'em, wrap 'em, and stick 'em in a case with a .060 LDPE over a healthy amount of 1 1/2 Swiss and the primer my rifle likes best. The components are put in the case no differently than they would be for grease groove bullets. Nothing I do is dramatically different from loading grease groove bullets other than the lack of lube filled grooves and my use of a paper jacket that forms a barrier between the bore and the lead.

My Hepburn does have a special paper patched chamber, but my Shiloh .45-90 and my C. Sharps .40-65 do not and they both shoot paper patched bullets better than grease groove bullets. That's just a fact.

I don't see it as grease groove vs. paper patched, I just shoot what gives me the best possible score I capable of on any given day. That has consistently been paper patched bullets.

Now if I were advising a new shooter I would probably suggest they go with grease groove and only because there will likely be more available help. Now if that new shooter wanted to shoot paper patched bullets I would certainly give all the help I could.

With either type it is very important to use a strong BS filter when shifting through the available info, especially that found on the internet. There are a lot of "experts" out there that do little more than sit at their computers. If at all possible talk to those who are winning matches. Those resources were invaluable to me when I started shooting competitively 23 years ago. None that I asked turned me away or gave me bad information. They didn't always tell me what I wanted to hear, but always told me what was true and helpful.

Is this a great sport or what?

Jim

[OLReliable]

I really don't do anything special or fret over a bunch of exacting details. I just cast 'em, wrap 'em, and stick 'em in a case with a .060 LDPE over a healthy amount of 1 1/2 Swiss and the primer my rifle likes best. The components are put in the case no differently than they would be for grease groove bullets. Nothing I do is dramatically different from loading grease groove bullets other than the lack of lube filled grooves and my use of a paper jacket that forms a barrier between the bore and the lead.
Jim

Jim,
Are you loading PPB without using a grease cookie?

[Distant Thunder]

OLR,

Short answer is, yes, no grease cookie.

The only cartridge I have had to use a grease cookie in to get paper patched bullets to work was my .44-100 ST. For some reason that one needed the cookie to shoot well. I do think a better fitting bullet would eliminate the cookie in that one too.

I have never used a cookie in my Hepburn .45-70, my Shiloh .45-90, or my C. Sharps .40-65. Or in my C. Sharps .50-70 come to think of it. I've won matches with all those rifles shooting paper patched bullets without a grease cookie. Just powder, wad, bullet. It's that simple.

I do wipe the bore between shots using a water + oil solution. That is lube of course.

Jim

[bruce m]

jim,
you could not have put it better.
kevin,
you question is a little unfair.
this is because statistically there being more greaser shooters than pp shooters, there will be more winners with greasers.
the stats up around lodi read differently.
so what are the advantages of pp?
first one is that long low drag bullet noses do not have to be bore riding, and are therefore less prone to leading.
second is that grease grooves create more drag than smooth sided bullets.
this translates to less wind deflection.
there are many otheres but those are the main ones.
pp bullets are as easy to load as gg bullets, subject to this proviso.
to get the pp bullet singing, you need to come to an understanding of how they work, and do a bit of testing.
this requires some mental effort, but if you listen to guys like jim, brent, and kurt, you will find that it is pretty simple.
as simple as this - paper thickness equal to or less than rifling depth - bullet thickness to take that paper out to a nice sliding fit into the bore.
many are now using elliptical noses for their superior b.c. in our velocity ranges.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Distant Thunder]

bruce,

Your correct, the paper should be as thin as possible, .002" or less and should bring the bullet up to a nice push fit into the bore. All this discussion is pertaining to target loads with paper patched bullets, paper patched hunting bullets are usually approached a bit differently.

Fit is very important, as is hardness. The lead alloy must upset uniformly while maintaining as much of the original nose profile as possible. Too soft is bad.

Length is also very important for both grease groove and paper patched. Many people exceed the optimum length for their twist rate and as a result they struggle when the wind gets twitchy.

All three of these things, fit, hardness, & length apply equally to GG & PP.

Jim

[Don McDowell]

Bullets somewhere between .004 and .006 under bore diameter, before patching, cast from 18-1 or 16-1, wrapped in seth cole 55w, seem to work well in a variety of rifles that lounge around here. Altho I have one that shoots bore diameter slicks wrapped in the Seth Cole better than it shoots anything, including the oft heralded greasers.
As Jim pointed out,bullet length for the twist is important.
A good chamfer on the inside of the case mouth is vital to accuracy as is good case neck tension.
But the biggest thing that wrecks a dandy paper patch load is a minor hiccup in the fouling control.
Not hard to get patched to shooting well, but it does take a bit more attention to detail.

[bruce m]

but once you've nailed the detail it is very straight forward.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

Yup. Almost as boring as shooting greasers from there on out.