Volume vs weight - need some help here!

[Trigger1212]

Gents,

Need a little help understanding this please. Long time CF shooter and understand powder by weight. Have shot BP Muzzloaders for some time so know that most people measure BP by volume, weight does not matter. Same 2F Swiss BP from lot to lot may have variations in weight with the identical volume.

I get all that, but I'm having a problem wrapping my head around loading BPCR loads in a case.... With a muzzleloader you have your tube measure with volume marks on it that roughly equate to weight (most people THINK they really are exact weight markings). Usually you adjust it up or down a bit to find a load your MZ likes and does not blow the patch off your roundball, cinch it down and your pretty much set for life as the little difference from lot to lot does not make a difference for MZ hunters.

With say a 45-70 BPCR load you need to be much more precise and try a fair number of different load combinations with one of the factors being the amount of BP used. Everyone always says measure by volume but most people give their measurements in weight (gr). I've never seen a powder tube that precisely marks the volume by grain. Usually they are coarsely marked 20, 30, 40, 50 etc. A Belding and Mull or MVA micrometer tube probably comes closest to being adjustable by a single grain but not really sure how accurate they are.

So having said all that are you all actually working up loads using WEIGHED powder charges? Or do you have some sort of fixed volume measure for your favorite powder weights?

I'm thinking that you do it be weighing it and then when you have to switch to a new lot of powder you run some loads with the same weight of the new powder with the rest of the load components staying the same to see if you are getting the same performance as the previous lot and if not then you go up or down on the weight depending on velocity?

This is even a hard question to write out! Hope someone can give a good clear explanation as to how you manage your powder when loading. Again, I understand the difference between volume vs weight. Just not a clear understanding as to what is the proper method when loading BPCR.

Feel like an igit asking a question like this but that what the brain trust on this forum is for!

Thanks in advance!

Wade

[martinibelgian]

Short reply - just about everyone uses weight, you just use volume to determine the weight you need to dispense with a volumetric powder measure... At least, most do. Tried loading by volume when changing powder lots, and found out I was giving up accuracy.
And yes, there are people that are convinced that they can measure grains volume, but like you, I cannot get my brain around that. you determine the actual powder weight you need, then you adjust your powder measure to throw a volume corresponding to that weight, and you are good to go.
Actually, most people that say they are loading by volume are, when they are giving you details, loading by weight anyway...

[gunlaker]

The MVA measure is pretty consistent for sure. Just use it to find the desired volume and record the weight.

For short range ( 200-300m ) you will be unable to detect the difference between just using the measure and weighing the individual charges.

An option, if you have an electronic scale, is to drop the charges with the measure and weigh them on the electronic scale. If they fall within your desired tolerance range then drop tube them into the case. Otherwise pour it back into the measure and drop the charge again.

I do weigh all charges as closely as is possible with my RCBS 10-10 for match purposes though.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Weigh the charges if your interested in the best of accuracy.
Ever wonder why cartridges were designated by the caliber and charge weight, way back in the day?

Remington and Sharps included the benefits of weighing charges for accuracy , as early as 1875. Sharps dedicated a page in the 1877 catalog on scales and their use, and weight conversion tables. Remington in 1875 gave a good graphic about the difference in bullet impact between weighed and volume charges.

[SSShooter]

Have shot BP Muzzloaders for some time so know that most people measure BP by volume, weight does not matter.
Wade

While that may be true for MLs, pretty much everyone weighs their powder charge in BPCR/BPTR.

[Trigger1212]

Ok, so weighing is the way to go by 100% concencus (sp?)! I've got a RCBS loadmaster electronic dispenser/scale but was a bit cherry of putting BP through it. Apparently that would not be a problem? Only complain there is that it is a pretty slow way to dispense powder.

Just picked up a used Belding & Mull with 2 micrometer off of ebay, not hear yet. Will be real interested to see how consistently it throughs. Everyone says it is one of the better dispensers for BP, guess we will see! Currently have a Lyman Classic 55 which does OK but hoping for a bit more consistency with the B&M.

Wade

[Clarence]

I load by volume. RCBS measure with micrometer. In general, only a little change in volume is required when changing to a new lot of powder. In general, if a given volume is lighter in weight, I tend to add a little volume for that lot.

When throwing charges by volume, technique is everything. Whether the RCBS or MVA, the handle needs to be operated EXACTLY the same every time. It's easy to get >1 gr. variation by operating the handle at different speeds, banging the stop vs. barely touching it, etc. When done properly and consistently, total variation is low enough that the resulting loads shoot better than my ability out to 600 yds.

YMMV-there are many different techniques that work when loading BPCR ammo...

Clarence

[Don McDowell]

Your chargemaster will be the way to go.

[Trigger1212]

Clarence I agree with you 100%, technique with the handle is everything. One of the reasons I like my charge master for pistol work where the throws are so small. I'm HOPING the B&M will be a little less sensitive in that regard with the sliding secondary hopper. Time will tell!

Don, really enjoy my Chargemaster, just wish it was a bit faster. Was thinking about ordering another weigh pan for it so I can be dumping one throw in the drop tube and have the other one dispensing. Only issue would be to make sure I get both pans to weigh exactly the same. If they are off I have to imagine it would only be by a tiny amount so a little file work along the top edge should take care of it.

Thanks for all the input!

Wade

[Trigger1212]

Don

Forgot one question. Do you have to do any particular cleaning of the charge master after running BP through it? Thx.

Wade

[Jim Kidwell]

Per Dan T.............

Chargemaster 1500 Speed Adjustment

Turn the unit on. When 0.0gn is on the display, press BOTH the ENTER and the EDIT MEM keys on the dispenser at the same time. Hold for a second and then release. If done properly ADJUST PARAMETER should scroll across the display followed by HSP 00015.68 (This number represents the number of grains away from your entered charge when the tube will shift from fast speed to medium speed. That is at 15.68 gn from your target charge the dispenser will shift from fast to medium speed.) To speed up the unit, this number needs to be decreased and to slow down the unit this number needs to be increased. (On a slow unit, I would change this number to11.00 gn this is done by pressing the following keys: 1 1 0 0 ENTER (pressing the enter key sets that value and moves to next setting in program in this case, to medium speed to slow speed setting) HSP 00003.42 should scroll across the display now. This number represents where the unit will shift from medium to slow speed. Using the same process as before in # 2. For a slow unit I would change this number to 2.50 gn this is done by pressing the following keys: 2 5 0 ENTER (pressing the enter key sets that value and moves to next setting in program in this case, to slow speed to trickle speed setting) HSP 00001.08 should now scroll across the screen. This number represents where the unit will shift from slow speed to trickle. Using the same process as before in # 2. For a slow unit I would change this number to .90 gn this is done by pressing the following keys: 9 0 ENTER. This is all the adjustment that needs to be done to the unit. You need to press the ENTER key to cycle through the rest of the program. (approx. 22 times) The unit will start its normal initial countdown process when this is done. You need to test out the dispenser now. Enter your target charge and dispense. I usually disregard the first charge. Throw a few charges at these settings to see if they will work for you. If they don’t, return to step # 2 and repeat the process. NOTE due to powder variations you may have to adjust the unit for each powder. "

[Don McDowell]

Trigger I don't have a charge master, but I do run the Lyman fps 1200 and one of the Hornady units. Nothing special about cleaning them out. After I dump the powder left in the hopper, back in the can, I set the unit to run 23 gr. That will pretty well get the tube cleaned out.

I like the time between charges, while the next charge is running on the machine, I compress and seat the wad, and or bullet.

[Trigger1212]

Jim,

Excellent info on changing the setting on the change master!

Don, when I say it's too slow I am looking at it from the CF angle, no wads to seat etc so I can have the bullet seated well before the next powder charge is metered out. With BP loading a little more to do, drop tube the powder, wad, possible newspaper wad and seat bullet. So maybe the time really will not be that bad. Will have to give it a go!

Great info, thanks!

Wade

[desert deuce]

Idgit or not, pretty obvious right away your were born to shoot black powder competition.

[MSalyards]

I like the time between charges, while the next charge is running on the machine, I compress and seat the wad, and or bullet.[/quote]

What Don says.^^^^^