midrange prone discussion

[gunlaker]

I thought I'd see if there was any interest in a discussion on Midrange prone competition. Mostly silhouette or Creedmoor gets all of the attention.

I used to think that the .40-65 was he perfect midrange prone cartridge but I'm not so sure anymore. I'm going to shoot my .45-90 this year. The reason is really the 600 yard target. I think the 200 yard target is pretty straight forward. You aren't going to lose a lot of points there, if any. The 300 is a little trickier and the .40-65 is certainly capable of shooting perfect targets in the right hands, but so is the .45-90.

I should say that I'm talking about the .45-2.4" by the way. That's for you Bruce M.

I think the 600 yard target is another matter. I'm pretty confident that my .45's will hold a little better vertical than my .40-65's at distances past 500. If I was to bet on any of my rifles being able to shoot a perfect target at 600, it'd be one of my .45-90's or maybe one of my paper patched .45-70's which is loaded with the same amount of powder.

The opportunity to gain points at 600 is greater than the opportunity at 200 and 300. I think 600 is where midrange prone is won.

Chris.

[beltfed]

Seems to me -- doesn't the 40-65 hold its own pretty well in Silhouette which is shot out to 500 meters/550 yds?
Of course, we all know that hitting a ram is not the same as placing the shots in a 6" x ring at 600yds....
As always, the plus for the 40-65 is less recoil to handle..
And, how about a 40-65 with a 14 twist barrel as opposed to the usual 16 twist modern 40-65?
beltfed/arnie

[rdnck]

I'll bite. I would stay with the 40-65, or in a perfect world, go with the 45-70. The 45-90 gives too much recoil, and will break your heart at 300. I have an 8x10 photo around here somewhere of a 10 shot group on a ram swinger with a 45-70 at 504 yards that was 1 3/4 inches deep and 4 inches wide. A dollar bill covered it easily. My 45-70s have always shot well under MOA for elevation at 300 and beyond when loaded with a Lyman Postell or a 540 grain Brooks and 69 grains of Goex 2f Express. The old white box WLR primers didn't hurt anything either. Shoot straight, rdnck.

[bryany]

Chris, I've shot both 40-65 and 45-90 at midrange. With that said my best 600 yd scores have been with a 38-50 and my best 200 yd with the 45-90. I don't think there is an advantage with any one of them. Windy conditions at 600 might favor the 90 on paper but I think it's more a matter of the rifleman and his rifle doing the job. Use whatever you like and stick with it through the season.

Bryan

[SSShooter]

We shoot five (5) BPTR mid-range (200/300/600yd) matches each year (weather permitting - our season opener this Saturday is going to be cool & windy - normal first match). This includes a 60-shot regional/state match in June. The range records (agg and at each distance for both 30-shot and 60-shot matches) are all held by a someone shooting a 40-65.

Would be interesting to know the range records at Riverbend in GA. Recall a couple of years back the winner shot a 290 with his 38-50. That's a tough score to top.

[DeadEye]

So what have you got to say now Chris? To quote a line from one of my favorite movies, "you have been weighed, you have been measured and you have been found wanting." Just kidding.

I totally agree with you and Bryan both. I love shooting my 40-65 but comes along a windy day and my score tanks so I go back to the 45-70 or 45-90 for the 'edge' under those conditions. I think if I stuck with it and learned to shoot it in all conditions I would do as well. It is also a matter of confusing my spotter when I switch back and forth. Makes it tough on how much wind to call. So like Bryan says they'll all do the job but pick one and stick with it. Problem is they're all fun to shoot and I hate to leave one in the safe so for me it breaks down this way. The 40-65 gets the call for Scoped Silhouette, the 45-70 for Iron Silhouette and the 45-90 for all Long Range work.

Paul

[gunlaker]

I agree with the pick one and stick with it concept. I often tend to do the opposite, playing with different ideas to see where they go

I am really happy with my .40-65. Actually I have two of them, the newest is one of the 1:14 twist Shiloh's. I haven't shot it enough yet to know whether it's better than my 1:16 twist rifle. My 1:16 twist Shiloh shoots very well and has done well at the midrange matches I've shot in Byers and Worland, but I've never shot better than a 90 at 600. Maybe the load needs tuning for just this distance, something I've never tried.

I use the same rifle for silhouette and, at the ram line it does shoot really well, but it's harder to get a real shot plot off of the rams to see how small the group really is. It is a super laser at the turkey line for sure.

The one thing that started me down this road is that I noticed that in all of my Shiloh's, I've had them shoot well with a tapered bullet, but even better with a full diameter bullet ( this is the opposite of what I expected, and it took me a few years to see the trend ). My .40-65 is the exception in that at 600 the reduced driving band 400gr ( Kidwell ) Money is the best shooting bullet I have. I think this is because the cartridge runs out of gas with a deep seated bullet at further distances.

I know some will say this is not true, as I've heard of excellent scores with the Saeco #740 at 800 with a .40-65, but the 800 yard target is much easier than the 600 yard target. I'm sure that'll fan the flames .

Does anyone know what the top three midrange prone shooters have been shooting at Raton in the BPTR Nationals for the last few years? I think that Rick M is shooting a .45-90 in midrange prone these days, but a .38-50 for silhouette.

Chris.

[COBPTR]

Chris, In 2016 it was two 45-70's and a 45-90 that made up the top 3 in the 2,3 and 600yd program at Raton.
In 2017, when the program switched to 3,5 and 600 it was 2, 45-90's and a 45-70 that made up the top 3.
That 45-70 smoked everyone on Day 2 for the highest score I've ever seen in a 3,5 and 600yd match. 291!


Robert G.

[art ruggiero]

i think the larger calibers are better for those of us that are marginal on calling the wind, thats why i shoot my 44/77 at full mid range matches my best at 600 is a 93 art

[VBull]

I just went back and looked up some data from a match I'd shot in 2004. At that time I loaded some old Elephant powder in a 45-90 (97 gr.) that only chrono'd at 1150fps. I was shooting a P. Jones Creedmoor bullet and it was the only time I'd used this powder in a match. I'd been using Swiss 1.5 in this particular rifle prior and just wanted to see how this powder worked out. The load shot 5 moa lower at 200 then the Swiss load, 8 moa lower at 300 then the Swiss and I did not record what it took at 600. I dropped 2 points at 300 not believing it would shoot that much lower and dropped 2 points at 600 (first and last shots for record) 296-11X

The conditions were perfect. High overcast with a steady light breeze. Just enough to keep the smoke clear. So, a heavy and slow bullet can shoot well but I'd have to say most anything would have worked well that day. Several other records were set during that match. Junior, woman, etc....
I keep shot charts of every match I've ever shot and dug back in the stack. I have a fast twist 38 I'd like to try someday at midrange. FM

[VBull]

I just went back and looked up some data from a match I'd shot in 2004. At that time I loaded some old Elephant powder in a 45-90 (97 gr.) that only chrono'd at 1150fps. I was shooting a P. Jones Creedmoor bullet and it was the only time I'd used this powder in a match. I'd been using Swiss 1.5 in this particular rifle prior and just wanted to see how this powder worked out. The load shot 5 moa lower at 200 then the Swiss load, 8 moa lower at 300 then the Swiss and I did not record what it took at 600. I dropped 2 points at 300 not believing it would shoot that much lower and dropped 2 points at 600 (first and last shots for record) 296-11X

The conditions were perfect. High overcast with a steady light breeze. Just enough to keep the smoke clear. So, a heavy and slow bullet can shoot well but I'd have to say most anything would have worked well that day. Several other records were set during that match. Junior, woman, etc....
I keep shot charts of every match I've ever shot and dug back in the stack. I have a fast twist 38 I'd like to try someday at midrange. FM

[SSShooter]

Chris, In 2016 it was two 45-70's and a 45-90 that made up the top 3 in the 2,3 and 600yd program at Raton.
In 2017, when the program switched to 3,5 and 600 it was 2, 45-90's and a 45-70 that made up the top 3.
That 45-70 smoked everyone on Day 2 for the highest score I've ever seen in a 3,5 and 600yd match. 291!
Robert G.

Wonder how much of that is the fact that these shooters were going on to shoot the long-range matches and did not want to load/shoot two different rifles? If it were only a mid-range match would they have chosen those rifles?

I have a fast twist 38 I'd like to try someday at midrange.
FM

C'mon down to Cumberland Riflemen this Saturday and find out. I'll be shooting my 38-50 gain-twist rifle in our mid-range match. Everyone is welcome. Even folks from New England.

[COBPTR]

Glenn, every one of those people jumped up to a 45-90 or 45-100 for LR.
I think one of the shooters switched to a different 45-90.
Most people bring at least 2 rifles for BPTR mid and long range in Raton.


Robert G.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

The 3-5-6 program, has changed the game somewhat. I know a couple years back Rick Moritz stepped up to a 45-90 in mid-range, and won. In 2015 I won the scope prone mid-range title, with my 38-50. Winds ate me alive at 600 I barely won, chiefly due to excellent scores at 200-300. After the yardage change in the program, (which I heartily voted for) I switched to my heavy gun and Paper Patch. In 2016 at Byers I won the 500 yard line with a 95-4x. That convinced me to stick to the 45's.

I may possibly shoot scope mid-range prone, with my 40-70. Time will tell. I know the 45-110 will perform with a 516 gr PP bullet in a 25# Tolloffson very well in mid-range with little issue of recoil.

KW

[gunlaker]

Thanks very much for the information, especially the Raton stuff. That is some pretty incredible shooting Frank.

I do know that the biggest way for me to improve consistently is to make fewer mistakes. I started thinking about this last year at the Wyoming midrange match. I lost only a few points total on the first four targets at 200 & 300. There was very little to make up there, but on the second day I shot a 90 for the first target ( and then lost it big time jerking the trigger on the second target ). I've shot 90's a few times but never over that. That's 10 points lost per target even if I were to shoot 2 90's in a row.

I think focusing on the 600 yard target is the way forward for me. It might be as simple as tuning the .40-65 load better for 600, or maybe shooting a bigger .45 cal bullet.

Kenny I think you are right, the 300,500,600 will change things considerably.

Chris.