midrange prone discussion

[VBull]

Glenn,
Your first match won't work for me. I just had a total knee replacement 5 weeks ago and am just started driving myself around. I'm working on stairs and uneven ground now so it will be a little while yet. But I'm hoping to get down there and hit the Reade range long range match in August. This years Canadian Nationals won't interfere as it will be later in August then normally. The DCRA match is something everyone should try at least once. FM

[VBull]

Glenn,
Your first match won't work for me. I just had a total knee replacement 5 weeks ago and am just started driving myself around. I'm working on stairs and uneven ground now so it will be a little while yet. But I'm hoping to get down there and hit the Reade range long range match in August. This years Canadian Nationals won't interfere as it will be later in August then normally. The DCRA match is something everyone should try at least once. FM

[Kurt]

Last fall I had a .40-65 build with a 14 ROT for the purpose for the midrange and Silhouette matches. What started me down this road is what I have seen at Shoots like the Q and Baker and the gold under glass Ms. Bagwell has she earned for the long range matches at the Nationals.
I watched Brian and his Daughter shoot at the Big Hill matches past 1000 yards doing very well with this little cartridge and the .40-65's used at Alma Michigan for the silhouette matches. I have one of the Browning BPCR in the .40-65 I don't think that I have shot 150 rounds through it since I think 1999 when I got this rifle.
Just yesterday I started load development for the 14 ROT with three different bullets from a 392 diameter prolate weighing 386 gr. A .394" elliptical at 417 gr. and a .496 elliptical that drops out at 429 grains. All three PP bullets shot with 3 shot ladder loads with Swiss 1.5 zero compression to .300" and I have not seen a group over 3.5" at 200 yards several with all three bullets are under two inches.
Now yesterday the conditions were great for load tests with just a light 5 to 8 mph winds and I like the results to this point. I won't get a chance to shoot to the 500 yard line till in a couple weeks at the Alma silhouette match or the midrange at Wisconsin rapids in May. This will tell the story if this rifle will hold at midrange distances.
I only shot 10 rounds at Alma at the ram line to see if it will knock down the heavy rams and a few shots at the turkey swinger and after I got the sight setting it did not miss the next 4-5 shots I took. I think it will be a very mild recoiling rifle caliber.

[Distant Thunder]

Everything was going along smoothly and then this sort of thing pops up and throws a wrench in my plans! You guys just can't leave things alone.

I don't believe I've ever won a midrange match at Lodi, not that I can remember anyway. I have been first loser several times, including that time old Bob what's his name beat me by 1 point. That was about the best shooting I done in a midrange prone match and I wasn't anywhere near a 291 or even a 290. I did shoot a 288 the second day of that to make up for a stupid thing I did at 600 on the first day. For reasons I don't remember I decided to change the way I was wiping between shots and it didn't work so too good! I don't remember old Bob complaining.

I have always shot the midrange matches with one of my .45s, either my .45-90, my .45-70 or my other .45-70. That was in part because my .40-65 did not turn in consistent enough results to use it in a match I thought I might win. Ok, could possibly win, maybe. That was before I overhauled it a year ago. Now it's shooting pretty darn well and I was thinking it would be kind of fun to shoot it in the Lodi May midrange this year.

Now all the naysayers come along talking bad about a .40 caliber as a midrange rifle. I may still shoot my .40-65 because I really want to know how it's shooting under match conditions out to 600 yards. At Lodi we have been shooting 300, 500, & 600 yards for a few years now and paper at those distances would tell me a lot more about my load and bullet than a silhouette match where anything in the black is good.

I only got to shoot one day of silhouette with my .40 last year and it did very well. And couple of gong matches out to 500 yards where it did very well. That left me feeling pretty good about all the time I put into getting it to shoot. Now this discussion comes up..................

[SSShooter]

Glenn,
Your first match won't work for me. I just had a total knee replacement 5 weeks ago and am just started driving myself around. I'm working on stairs and uneven ground now so it will be a little while yet. But I'm hoping to get down there and hit the Reade range long range match in August. This years Canadian Nationals won't interfere as it will be later in August then normally. The DCRA match is something everyone should try at least once. FM

Good luck with that knee. Ain't it great that medicine has advanced to the point that worn out parts of our bodies (your knee, my hip, hearts, eye parts, teeth, etc.) can simply be replaced with new parts. Just like our rifles.
Come down for the June regional/state championship. 60-shot match (2x30-shot) in one day. Hope to see you there.
Reade sounds good and Canada would be easier than Raton (1/5 the distance).

[Don McDowell]

Chris the 525 gr money bullet from BACO in either patched or grooved version works very well for midrange in a 16 twist chamber in the 45 2.4.

[Shadow 4]

So what have you got to say now Chris? To quote a line from one of my favorite movies, "you have been weighed, you have been measured and you have been found wanting." Just kidding.

I totally agree with you and Bryan both. I love shooting my 40-65 but comes along a windy day and my score tanks so I go back to the 45-70 or 45-90 for the 'edge' under those conditions. I think if I stuck with it and learned to shoot it in all conditions I would do as well. It is also a matter of confusing my spotter when I switch back and forth. Makes it tough on how much wind to call. So like Bryan says they'll all do the job but pick one and stick with it. Problem is they're all fun to shoot and I hate to leave one in the safe so for me it breaks down this way. The 40-65 gets the call for Scoped Silhouette, the 45-70 for Iron Silhouette and the 45-90 for all Long Range work.

Paul

Paul, Paul, Paul, you & I both know that Spot won't let you shoot your 40-65 she simply humors you once in awhile

[bruce m]

chris,
yes the 2.4" case
but what about the same case necked to 40 aka the 40/82.
pp or greaser whatever you prefer.
a 13" twist will be good for a 1.5" long bullet, probably about 440 gns, with a low drag elliptical nose.
a nice recoil compromise .
the 40/72 will do exactly the same, but it sounds like your extractors are all 45/70 size.
the winchester case just needs a new barrel.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Trigger1212]

DT

Just curious, what did you do to “overhaul” your 40-65? Did you mechanically change something on the rifle (faster twist barrel for example) or was that a figure of speech meaning you made a new concerted effort at specific load development for that rifle?

Cheers!

Wade

[gunlaker]

Bruce, I'm trying very hard to stop playing with new cartridges. I've started to reduce the number of cartridges I use. I'm the sort of person that always likes to play with something new. The one thing I've realized is that with all of the custom chambers and fooling around with different bullet designs, I'd be further ahead today than if I'd bought three Shiloh Sharps rifles and stopped there. One a .40-65, then a .45-70, and finally a .45-2.4.

I am not there yet as I have .32-40's, .38-55's, .38-50's, .40-65's, .45-70's, .45-2.4's, a .45-2.6, and a .45-2-7/8". But I'm trying very hard

Honestly though, I think that whatever gets you so that you can hold as tight vertical as possible at 600 is the ticket for midrange. Assuming, of course, that you can shoot it consistently well. I do think that just holding the ten ring for vertical is not enough to shoot consistently good scores at 600 as the ten ring is awfully narrow at the top and bottom, leaving little room for wind reading mistakes.

Chris.

[Kurt]

Chris I don't see any .44's listed. If you can talk Kirk into making a .44 with a 17 twist either in the .44-77 or the .44-90bn I don't think you would be disappointed.

[bruce m]

chris,
the answer to your problem is clear.
rebarrel all your 45s to 40/82 with 13" twist barrels.
they would all be chambered with the same cunningly designed reamer, so brass would be interchangeable.
if greaser type chamber, you can still shoot pp bullets by using dual diameter bullets.
never any need to size brass.
before we hear the usual howls of "40s cant do it", just remember that the howlers are usually the ones who do not understand ballisics, and in particular what ballistic coefficient means.
they probanly never will because they are members of the flat earth society.
either that or they have never used suited bullets in fast twists and seen the results, or they have an inability to work up loads in same.
incidentally, the 40/82 would probably clean up a 40/65 chamber.
keep safe,
bruce.

[bruce m]

incidentally, as a canadian you have access to ron smith gaintwist barrels and kal pp moulds.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Distant Thunder]

DT

Just curious, what did you do to “overhaul” your 40-65? Did you mechanically change something on the rifle (faster twist barrel for example) or was that a figure of speech meaning you made a new concerted effort at specific load development for that rifle?

Cheers!

Wade

Wade,

The "overhaul" included things I did to the rifle as well as designing a bullet specifically for that rifle with silhouette matches in mind. It did not include changing the barrel to a faster twist, which is what everyone told me to do. Nothing is that easy for me! I decided to stay with the 18 twist Badger barrel I had installed 20 years ago. That was done to change from .40-90 SB to .40-65 WCF.

The rifle:

I pulled the barrel and matted the top flat in a very pleasing fancy pattern. Not sure that improved the accuracy any, but it sure looks good.

I reblued the barrel. Not sure that improved the accuracy, but it does looks good.

I looked hard and long at adding a through bolt to the stock, but there just isn't an easy way to get that done. Instead I settled for bedding the action to the stock to "tighten" things up. This I believe did improve the accuracy.

I drilled and tapped the barrel and mounted a scope. That I am sure improved my ability to see the silhouettes I'm shooting at and therefore improved the accuracy of my shooting.

I made and install a fancy bronze cap on the pistol grip. It's doubtful that improve the accuracy, but it sure looks good.

I removed the original finish and stained and refinished the stock. No improvement in accuracy, but yea, it sure looks better.

The new bullet:

Being I couldn't part with my 18 twist barrel I was faced with designing a bullet that would have the most weight I could get in a .40 caliber and not exceed 1.250" length. The general consensus was that 1.240 - 1.250" was the longest I could go and have very good stability.

Because it's hard for me to do anything the easy way I decided that I would go with a paper patched bullet. That and I really like paper patched bullets. So I set out to design a two-diameter paper patched bullet 1.250" long that would fit the chamber/freebore of my barrel. I started with a nose pour adjustable paper patched mold I had and played with the length and diameter until I felt I had the best fit to my chamber. Then I cut a new mold that casts a nice 382 grain round nose paper patched bullet with a groove diameter +.001" rear shank and a bore diameter forward section. I made the groove diameter length to fit the 3/8" long freebore and have only .075" in the case. The shallow seating allows room for a .060 LDPE wad and 72.0 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss with very little compression. This combination seems to be very accurate so far and is pretty speedy for a .40-65.

The overhaul took about 8 months to get things to where I am pretty happy with the results. A .40 is so darn much fun to shoot, especially when it shoots so well. It can't hurt if it looks good too and I need all the help I can get.

[ChrisF]

I am no expert but I read this forum a great deal. It sounds like the 45-90 will do it all. Brian Chilson shoots a 45-90 and he has lots of wins under his belt.