midrange prone discussion

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rdnck
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by rdnck »

FWIW the 600 yard record at Kenny Wasserburger's 1000 yard Creedmoor match in Wyoming was set with a 45-70 in 2004. Last time I checked, it still stands. Shoot straight, rdnck.
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bruce m
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by bruce m »

any shooting is a game of statistics, and lowering the odds improves the chances.
lowering the odds includes getting a rifle shooting as chris says, with x ring verticle day in/day out in fair conditions.
this gives the widest target when that is the bullseye (10), and allows for less good wind reading.
using high b.c. bullets at reasonable velocity also gives a bit of forgiveness in the wind.
reducing recoil makes shooting good vert more achievable, but carried to extremes is a trade off in the wind.
we have to shoot competitions with what we have, so we make it as good as possible'
again, repeatable day in/day out.only one thing is worse between the ears than thinking of winning the comp, and that is shooting a record.
a record is a rare thing and often a matter of luck.
every person cannot hold a record or it would not work.
the only way to get one is not to think about it.
i recall in the early days of handgun sil a guy won a big shoot and held a record with a 1911.
many shooters went and bought one on the strength of that.
statistically that win meant nothing, and everyone knew that the 45acp is a lesser round for 200 meters.
you need to shoot enough to get statistics, and then you can compare them with other statistics to make meaningful decisions.
one off just don't cut it.
and try to do your best to win the comp.
keep safe,
bruce.
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martinibelgian
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by martinibelgian »

ChrisF wrote:I am no expert but I read this forum a great deal. It sounds like the 45-90 will do it all. Brian Chilson shoots a 45-90 and he has lots of wins under his belt.
The fact that he wins wouldn't be all that much cartridge-related IMO - he's jsut a very good shot. He'd probably be able to do the same with a 45-70 or whatever...
rdnck
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by rdnck »

The point of my post was that the 45-70 does very good work at 600 yards. That record has stood for 14 years. Shoot straight, rdnck.
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art ruggiero
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by art ruggiero »

how do you pp a 2 dia. bullet? thanks art
rdnck
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by rdnck »

Those that I have patched, I patched like an ordinary bullet. The base is typically only a few thousandths larger, and the nose runs a bit under bore diameter. Patch it tight, and the paper gives a bit and everything falls into place. I find a tapered bullet much more difficult to patch. Shoot straight, rdnck.
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Distant Thunder
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by Distant Thunder »

art,

It's surprisingly easy to patch the 2-diameter bullet. I must say that the patch is not overly tight on the bore diameter section, which is approximately .150" long. It is very tight on the freebore diameter shank. I'd have to look at the numbers but there is .008-.009" difference in the groove diameter and land diameter on the bullet.

I keep saying groove diameter but I'm really patching to the diameter of the freebore, .409". Groove diameter is actually .408" and the bore/land diameter is .400". Because the freebore is .375" long and the bullet it in the case .075" that groove diameter section is already .450" long. The bullet has a fairly long but blunt nose to keep the weight up for the rams. The nose is about half the length of the bullet OAL. Again, I'd have to look it up to give you exact numbers, but these are close.

DT
Jim Kluskens
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bruce m
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by bruce m »

when you look at all the ranges out to 1000 yds+, the general observation is this.
at 800 yds thigs get more difficult.
from 800 to 900 it gets much harder.
from 900 to 1000 it gets really hard.
this is aggravated by the fact that testing is way harder at these ranges.
600 is prabably the longest range where real predictability is present.
at 600 most cartridges will do an adequate job, includung the 45/70.
however we need to remember that higher velocity produces less vert.
this is all good as long as you don't get it from reducing bullet weight, which will reduce b.c. and increase wind deflection.
how you achieve velocities of 1300+ with less recoil is the balance that only you can decide.
it would seem that in 40 and 45 cal, at least 80 gns of powder is the go.
in 40 cal, a best bullet will weigh 440 gns plus, while in 45 cal the bullet that can compete in the wind will be 100 gns heavier.
take from that what you will re recoil.
with regards patching dual diameter bullets.
most greaser chambers will produce fired cases that will seat a bullet 0.010 bigger than bore diameter.
so a starting point is to design the bullet to patch to 0.010 bigger than bore where it seats into the case, and a sliding fit where it goes in the bore.
patching does require development of technique, but is not hard to learn.
the biggest issue is gettind a template to make the correct dimension patches.
wet patches and a bit of stretch when rolling will produce a patched bullet where the dried patch moulds to the shape of the bullet.
one good thind about the step is that you can put it at the transition/leade angle to hald the bullet back on the wad on chambering the round.
this is probably a moot point, as a bit of friction in the bore will also hold the bullet back.
keep safe,
bruce.
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mdeland
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by mdeland »

I've generally won when I could shoot into the 90's off hand in the position match which is what I preferred. I did come in 4th place one match some years back with a 274 in a position match. I though I had that one in the bag and got out x'd by three other shooting friends all with the same point count.
mdeland
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by mdeland »

I still think those long sleek high BC and fast .38's should be the ticket if one could figure out how to make them tick!
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Distant Thunder
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by Distant Thunder »

I see my .40-65 as being limited to 600 yards and under and my .45s being used for the longer range stuff. These days I use a .45-70 for 800, 900, & 1000 yards and I don't feel I give up anything to the longer 45s. If fact I used to load my .45-90 with 85 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss and with my .45-70 I'm loading 83.0 of the same. I don't think there is 20 fps difference between the two. You just have to use the correct type of bullet in a 70. :D

Here we were talking about midrange which is why I put my 2 cents worth in on 40 calibers being a reasonable choice.

As to patching my 2-diameter bullet, I don't use any special template or technique for patching. I use the same template I would use for any groove diameter .40 caliber bullet and I wrap the patch dry and just as if it were one diameter. I keep the patch tight on the groove diameter base and it is a bit loose on the bore diameter section. After the bullet is wrapped I just kind of squeeze the loose paper down around the bore diameter section. This seems to be working fine, no problems.

The groove diameter part of my bullet is .535" long, I checked. That means that the freebore is actually .450" long! There is only .075" of the bullet in the case. You can see why it was a bit of a challenge fitting the bullet to this chamber!

When it comes to paper patching I have found there are a few things that I need to pay attention to and a bunch of stuff that really isn't all that important. There is a lot of information on the web that I have found not to be true. And in spite of what others will tell you it's not complicated. I find that it couldn't be any simpler unless I had someone else do the loading for me. I enjoy the process too much to allow that to happen! :D

Every rifle is different, but a lot of what it takes to make them shoot well is the same. YMMV

DT
Jim Kluskens
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Trigger1212
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by Trigger1212 »

DT

Well I'm glad you got a good looking rifle out of the overhaul anyway! :lol:

Now is the point that I suppose I must say "pics or it didn't happen".

Cheers!

Wade
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by Kurt »

Jim are you bringing that .40 to Alma in a couple weeks and to Rapids in May to give it a trial ?
I think I will have my .40 running by the time Alma's first match.......Kurt
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bruce m
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by bruce m »

well said DT.
but we must remember your 40 is not a fast twist..
keep safe,
bruce.
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beltfed
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Re: midrange prone discussion

Post by beltfed »

Kurt and Jim,
We. Need to recheck on the dates for midranges in WI:
Right now, I am looking at having the BPTR Squadded Paper Midrange Practice at Wi Rapids on April 28
rather than April 21, as I believe more people who are interested in Paper Midrange zeros/practice may be able to make the 28th

Will verify Rapids 28th rather than 21 April after this weekend.....!!!!!!

Then, the May Midrange Regional is at LODI, on May 12/13
No Wi rapids BPTR in MAY.
beltfed/arnie
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