In-Line/compition seating dies, worth it?

[Trigger1212]

Gents,

Are inline/competition seating dies worth it when loading BP cartridges? I've enjoyed using Redding competition seating dies for my modern smokless CF rounds but have never tried it with BP cartridges.

1. Does it provide a value in producing good concentric BP loads?

2. PITA with lead/lubed bullets? That is my biggest fear, die getting gummed up with lube all the time.

3. If they are worth it, suggested MFG? Looked at Shiloh's unit but in looking at the pic is sure don't tell you a lot about how it works! Any one use one?

4. BA has one listed as from "Vickermann" or something like that, in this die there is a bullet cut out in the side of the die to drop the bullet in after the case is in the die.

Thanks for the feedback.

Cheers!

Wade

[jackrabbit]

I use the Redding Competition seating die and really like it. My Dad has the Vickerman and it's ok, but I like the Redding better. I think they are worth it and if I lost this one would immediately buy another.

[ChrisF]

I use Redding Competition Seating Dies. I like them very much. I have 3 of them. One for the 45-70, 45-90, and a limited run one they made for the 45-100 stamped on the side of the die sold for a short time by Buffalo Arms.

[Clarence]

I have Redding Competition seaters for .45-70 and .40-65. For the .40-70, a Shiloh in-lin seater. I tried a Meacham in-line (Vickerman type), but like the Redding better. The Meacham is now the world's most expensive compression die (but micrometer adjustable).

Clarence

[SchuetzenDave]

Using either a Lyman or a RCBS die set my seated .40-65 bullets were .002"or .003" offline 80% of the time.
When your inline concentricity is .002" or more it can affect accuracy (well documented by high power shooters).

When I switched to the Shiloh Sharps inline seater I had 90% of my bullets that were perfectly inline and only 10% that were only off by .001"

Since we shoot at Silhouettes we do not really notice how much our accuracy is affected.

However my Forster in-line concentricity gauge indicates things got remarkably better with more of my bullets being pointed directly inline down the bore once I started using the Shiloh Sharps inline seater.

[Trigger1212]

Thanks for the replies guys, looks like Redding is the way to go. As stated I've been very pleased with the ones I've got for smokless CF, just did not want to assume the same held true for BP rounds.

1. Any issue with Lube gumming up the works, or is it just a matter of periodically swabbing out with solvent on a patch and old brush?

2. Any issues with the seating stem and the various bullet nose profiles? The profiles run from quite pointy to bowling ball blunt. Or does it not matter given how light the neck tension generally is?

Cheers!

Wade

[bruce m]

wade,
no seating die will seat bullets straight in a crooked case.
to get no runout ammo, you need 2 things
the first is to be able to size them dead straight.
if this is done, a properly set up standard seater will seat bullets straight.
the other consideration is neck thickness.
case necks can commonly be 0.002 thicker on one side than the other, and even more commomly 0.001 thicker
when the case is fired in we assume a straight chamber, its outsides go straight, and in doing so MUST put the inside of the case offline.
to deal with this you must turn all your necks to the same thickness in such a way as to clean up the thinnest ones.
by making them all the same thickness you can achieve the same neck tension.
once you have thinned case necks, one of the advantages of the bushing die cuts in, where if you have reduced neck tension by thinning the brass, you can get it back with a smaller bushing.
so a good bushing sizing die is of much greater value than a fancy seater.
by changing bushings, you can reduce neck tension to where you can finger seat bullets woth your fingers and still have a bit of friction to hold the bullet in the case.
using a minimal sizing bushing negates the need for an expander, which works the brass less, such that it will last well.
also expanders can cause runout, so avoiding them is goos practice.
the other option is to shoot bullets patched to bore.
perfect alignment.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Trigger1212]

Bruce,

Good point, I've got Redding S-type bushing dies for some of my smokeless CF bottleneck cartridges and really like them. I usually neck turn the brass juuuuuust enough to knock of the high side of the neck, then fire form the case to a specific chamber and use the size bushing I want to achieve .002"-.003" tension on the loaded round. The part I really like about these dies is that I can set it up to partially size the neck, leaving a section of the bottom of the neck unsized to help center the case in the chamber. Assuming the chamber is in line with the bore this will effectively then center the round in the bore. Works well.

I've never heard of anyone on this forum neck turning their cases to gain consistent thickness. I would not expect it to be quite as relevant in the silly-wette game but anything that can give you an edge is usually pursued to the nth' degree in LR efforts. Maybe I just missed the references.

As stated I've always done the neck turning on bottle neck cases, the shoulder gives you a logical stopping point. How do you do this on a straight walled cartridge like the 45-70? On a case like this the whole length of case is centering the round, not just the neck per se.

1. How far down to you turn on your straight cases?

2. There will always be a sharp line on the case body where you stop, does/will this alter case longevity in your experience?

3. I imagine for best results you need to do this with virgin brass, as once fired there is always some firing residue on the inside of the neck, don't care what you clean them with, cannot seem to get back to complete "sparkling bare brass" inside the necks, at least that is true in my experience. Enough coating to throw off thickness measurments by a thou or so.

Any other LR shooters out there do the neck turning?

Thanks for the info, interesting stuff!

Cheers!

Wade

[bruce m]

wade ,
point taken re inside case necks fired vs new.
i have only ever used new.
the critical thing when neck turning is that the INSIDE of the case is small enough to be expanded to be paralell for the length required.
this might mean sizing smaller than usual, and it might mean that other than a bushing sizer is needed.
the length of turning is how much bullet is in the case + wad + a bit, say 0.020" to be safe.
obviously reduced band bullets will require less length of turning.
you will only need to take the high sides off the thinnest brass and use the same setting for thicker brass.
where you turn back to there will be a step, which after a number of shots will disappear, going to the inside.
i have always annealed my brass a little softer than for smokeless, and never lost a case.
once turned you will need another expander to fit a bullet in.
the die i have found handy to size for this job is an rcbs file trim die.
if you cant get the case small enough, a larger expander and corresponding pilot in the turner might be required.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Gussy]

Vickerman. I also use it for powder packing, no more nicked case mouths.

[Lumpy Grits]

Whatever die you use-Seat the bullet half way. Lower the ram, and rotate the case 180* and finish seating.
You want a bullet T.I.R. of no more than .003.
Gary

[bruce m]

gary,
that technique is using a zig to counteract a zag.
possibly the cases are sized crooked, in which case (pun ) you are approaching the problem from the wrong end.
another possibility is that the seater is poorly made or set up incorrectly.
in either situation it would be much better to seek out the cause and fix that.
as it happens, 0.003 is no bad runout, and some of that could be brass with varying wall thickness.
it raises the question of how much runout is acceptable, and some of this is influenced by how well you can shoot.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Lumpy Grits]

Never said I had to do it-Just a trick I learned from my modern long range rifle dayz.
As long as my bullet TIR for runout is under .003, I'm GTG. Ave is .0015.
I use Starline Brass, and it has an avg about .0005 variation in wall thickness.
Why the .003 TIR, as that is what Federal holds it's match grade rifle ammo to.
Do use a Redding Comp seater with a seating stem I made.
I have a background in tooling & fixture work.
G.

[bruce m]

doing the old rotate the case trick when seating probably works better with modern jacketed bullets than cast ones.
this is because straightening the runout might in fact bend a cast bullet.
if it staightns by the bullet not being bent, but bending the bullet in the neck, then neck tension will be adjusted.
your starine brass is about as good as it gets and better than most.
a lot of runout issues are not about who made the die, but how it is set up.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Lumpy Grits]

"Bend" a cast BPCR bullet from seating
Really don't think so...........
G.