Lyman 310 tool question

[amightfar]

Thought some of you experienced reloaders might me able to help me with this. I recently decided to try reloading some ammo for my 1874 Shiloh Sharps 45-70. Given that I have no experience with reloading, and given that I am not a high volume shooter (I try to get to the range once a month and fire off about 20 rounds), I decided to keep it simple at first. So after reading a lot and watching how-to videos online, I purchased a Lyman 310 tool set with 45-70 dies. After prepping several fired cartridge cases (decapping, cleaning the brass inside/out, cleaning primer cups, chamfering, tumbling/polishing, etc.), I inserted a lubed case into the neck resizing die ("Lyman 45-70 CNR", with decapping rod removed since I had already removed the primer caps with a different tool) and began adjusting the die to accommodate resizing to a depth below the case mouth (about .665") to get all the grease grooves behind brass on a 530 gn Postell (.458") cast bullet . After resizing about 1/3 in of the case,it took all of my strength and then some to open the tongs and eject the case. I checked the inside of the die, lubed another case, and got the same gut-busting result. I believe the neck diameter at the case mouth on a standard 45-70 case is supposed to be .480". I sampled 10 unfired rounds of my commercial ammo and they average .476". Not sure why they are not .480, unless they are crimped (but doesn't look like to me, but I could be wrong). I measured 10 rounds of fired cases and that neck measurement average is .479. However, the diameter of the case necks on the two partially resized cases is .474" to .476". So....am I doing something wrong ? Could this neck resizing die be out of spec ? Appreciate any words of wisdom. Thanks.

[High Desert Hunter]

What kind of lube are you using? Too much lube is as bad as too little, but most of the time what you are describing is too little. As far as your case mouth, I don't think mine measure .480 unless I have a bullet seated. I will admit, have only used a 310 tool to load pistol cartridges.

[rdnck]

You have to be really desperate for ammo to use a 310 tool to load it. Shoot straight, rdnck.

[beltfed]

Historically, I have found ( way back- late 50s- 38 spl, 9mm, '06) that the typical 310 tool dies Oversize the cases.
Latest is using my CC Johnson Red head press with 25-20 WCF Lyman 310 dies- Yes- sizer
over does it.
If you need to have portable tools , get yourself a Lee Hand Press, and their dies.
beltfed/arnie

[Lumpy Grits]

Sell that 310 tool, and get a single stage press.
Look at Redding or RCBS.
Gary

[BFD]

Thought some of you experienced reloaders might me able to help me with this. I recently decided to try reloading some ammo for my 1874 Shiloh Sharps 45-70. Given that I have no experience with reloading, and given that I am not a high volume shooter (I try to get to the range once a month and fire off about 20 rounds), I decided to keep it simple at first. So after reading a lot and watching how-to videos online, I purchased a Lyman 310 tool set with 45-70 dies. After prepping several fired cartridge cases (decapping, cleaning the brass inside/out, cleaning primer cups, chamfering, tumbling/polishing, etc.), I inserted a lubed case into the neck resizing die ("Lyman 45-70 CNR", with decapping rod removed since I had already removed the primer caps with a different tool) and began adjusting the die to accommodate resizing to a depth below the case mouth (about .665") to get all the grease grooves behind brass on a 530 gn Postell (.458") cast bullet . After resizing about 1/3 in of the case,it took all of my strength and then some to open the tongs and eject the case. I checked the inside of the die, lubed another case, and got the same gut-busting result. I believe the neck diameter at the case mouth on a standard 45-70 case is supposed to be .480". I sampled 10 unfired rounds of my commercial ammo and they average .476". Not sure why they are not .480, unless they are crimped (but doesn't look like to me, but I could be wrong). I measured 10 rounds of fired cases and that neck measurement average is .479. However, the diameter of the case necks on the two partially resized cases is .474" to .476". So....am I doing something wrong ? Could this neck resizing die be out of spec ? Appreciate any words of wisdom. Thanks.

Sorry to see the comments from rdnck, but that's par for the course.

Like you, I started out with a Lyman 310 tool and it worked just fine. For the amount of shooting that you do, it is pretty close to perfect.

What Arnie said about the dies being pretty tight is probably right, but yours may have burrs or rust in it. So clean it well, then inspect the cases you have already sized for scratches. Use magnification. If you find egregious scratching, then you need to hone it out, but I doubt this is the case.

Next, you might take one of the sized cases and paint it with a Sharpie marker and reinsert it into the die. Don't force it too far, especially since you have no lube on it but just until snug. Pull it out and see where most of the sizing is happening -it maybe down by the base, in which case, you aren't really accomplishing much that is helpful, but you could have the lower part of the die honed out slightly.

But better yet, throw out all of the above. Don't size your cases at all. There is no need to do this with lead bullets and blackpowder. Droptube your powder into the case, add a card or plastic wad, compress (this is problematic with the 310 die), and simply slide your bullet into the case with your fingers - no tools at all. Will your bullet seat in an unsized case with no more than modest thumb pressure? If so, you are done. Shoot it.

If the bullet falls into the case and waddles around, this is still fine, but it may be inconvenient. If you want the bullet to not fall out when the cartridge is inverted, then you could lightly crimp with the seating die (and the bullet seating stem removed) or better, run the loaded cartridge back into the sizing die and LIGHTLY size the neck down just the bare minimum to hold the bullet. Your sizing die may or may not accommodate this depending on how far the bullet is sticking out of the case.

As for that compression buggaboo, you can't compress the powder with a lead bullet while seating. It just doesn't work. Dedicated compression dies for the 310 tools are very hard to come by, but I have one, and I might know of another. Lacking a compression die, find a piece of metal, such as a piece of appropriately sized bolt shank (or potentially hardwood dowelling), and cut it to about the length of your bullet or a bit longer. Make this slightly smaller than your bullet, put it on top of the card wad, and seat it with the seating die to compress the powder as much as needed. Then remove it and seat your bullet by hand, crimp as necessary.

The bottom line is that, unless they don't fit into the case, you don't need to size your cases at all.

[beltfed]

As Brent said,
Polish out that sizing die. I had forgot to mention that
some of the 310 dies I have used did scratch the cases
But, ditto, you should Not have to size your cases between firings.
Just finger seat after separately compressing the powder
beltfed/arnie

[DaveC]

Hi; long time lurker, first time poster.

Some of the Lyman 310 neck sizing dies are grossly undersized. I have a .38-55 set that makes a sort of bottleneck shell when it neck sizes. It awaits polishing out when I get the time free.

However, much of the trouble you are having comes from using a Lyman “CMR” or “Combination Muzzle Resizing” die on your 310 handles. A 310 die set sizes the neck with one die, decaps the shell with the next, expands/bells the neck with a third and seats/crimps with a fourth. (It also reprimes, with yet another attachment.) You have a die which neck sizes, decaps and expands in one back-and-forth stroke. This was doable with the leverage available on the Lyman Tru-Line Jr. Press (for which it was made), but as you’ve seen, is rather arduous with the set of 310 handles. You could eventually break the handles, if they’re the aluminum ones.

You can use the 310 dies on the Tru-Line Jr., but even though they fit the handles, using Tru-Line Jr. dies on a 310 is asking for trouble.

I like the old tong tools myself. Not for quantity production for the next big shoot, but for more of the Olde Tyme Flavour aspect of the BPCR Experience.

[Clarence]

I have an old steel 310 tool specifically for the .45-70 with dies from that early period. The sizing die oversizes to the extent that it makes the .45-70 case look like a bottleneck. I use it only for d-epriming cases; the rest of the dies just complete the set and will eventually be sold with the handle.

Clarence

[Kurt]

I had Rick at the http://www.cnyauctions.com/the310shop.htm make me a pack tool for the .44-77 and it also has a compression stem with it. Just send Rick a couple cases fired in your rifle unseized and you will get a proper set of dies.
I even use the compression die for the .44-100 and the .44-90bn in the RCBS press with the adapter he sent.

[amightfar]

Gents : thanks for your thoughtful responses and good ideas. Clarence: you are right....the case comes out of the neck resizer looking like a bottleneck !

[bruce m]

how thick are your case necks?
the fired case neck diameter of 0.479 suggests a chamber diameter of 0.480 or a little bigger depanding on case springback after firing.
should the necks be 0.010 thick, the 0.479 o.d. of the neck suggests in i.d. of 0.459.
this is the perfect sized bullet for most 45 cal barrels.
in other words, the chamber is well dimensioned in that area fo groove diameter bullets.
the best solution here is to get a mould of correct diameter to finger seat in a fired case with a light friction fit.
such ammo has insufficient neck tension for riding a bucking horse in an ammo belt, but this is an unlikely scenario.
the most accurate ammo fills any space available, because it has less movement during minimal bumpup on firing.
these measurements are speculation, but bullet diameter can be changed to suit true neck thickness.
2 problems with tools like the 310.
first getting straight ammo with constant neck tension is hard to achieve due to the radial nature of operation as opposed to straight line.
second is that the ones made by lyman are made by lyman.
keep safe,
bruce.

[rdnck]

bruce just nailed it. Shoot straight, rdnck.

[LazyM]

Ditto on the Lyman hand press. You can do all with it you can do with a single stage press, albeit, a bit more effort.

[77 sharps]

A few years ago I posted that match winning ammunition could be made using a 310 tool. After I posted that I got to thinking that I had never actually done that, so I found 60 .45-70 cases and dug the #3 out of the back of the safe. After priming the cases I drop tubed in 75 grains of KIK powder and pressed in the wad using a jury rigged follower. I used the 310 sizing die to size .100" of the neck so I could twist my PP bullets into the cases. At the next silhouette match the winds were vicious. I'm not going to say I shot a stellar score, but I did manage to win the match. I'm not sure how well a 310 tool would work with GG bullets, but bore diameter PP bullets work just fine.

I think what DaveC had to say is significant. I purchased my handle and dies from Midway maybe less than 20 years ago so I have the correct dies with the handle. My 310 sizing die reduces the neck to the same dimension that my FL RCBS dies does. Just right to hold a .444 bullet patched with 9# onion skin paper. For casual shooting the 310 should serve you well.

Mike