perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

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gunlaker
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perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by gunlaker »

Does anyone have any record of how many perfect targets were shot at 1000 yards on the second Creedmoor target (with the round bull)?

I've only been able to find one record and that was in 1876 by Irishman J.K. Milner with a Rigby rifle. 75 points of a possible 75 points. On today's target that would probably score in the mid 90's.

Chris.
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desert deuce
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Re: perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by desert deuce »

No........not a single record of such a score in a match.
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Re: perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Jefferson Tolloffson fired a perfect score, at a match in the Midwest around 1879-80, was subsequently banned from further competition, with his #25 45-110.


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gunlaker
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Re: perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by gunlaker »

desert deuce wrote:No........not a single record of such a score in a match.
Zack, the one I quoted was from one of the International matches in 1876. The second closest target was a 73/75 I believe. One shot dropped out of the bull ( five points ) and gave three, so very close to a perfect target.

Chris.
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Re: perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by gunlaker »

Kenny Wasserburger wrote:Jefferson Tolloffson fired a perfect score, at a match in the Midwest around 1879-80, was subsequently banned from further competition, with his #25 45-110.


Kenny Wasserburger

I am 135 miles from my library so can't verify much.
Kenny I figured that you would know if anyone did. I assume that is the same target that Orville posted a picture of years ago? I always figured that target would make for a cool engraving pattern on a long range rifle.

But I wonder what sort of match it was, as the rifle certainly wouldn't have met the rules, or did they change the weight/trigger rules at a later date? I can't really find much information at all on the later Creedmoor matches.

Chris.
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Re: perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by desert deuce »

Chris: When you say the second Creedmoor Target with the round bull, do you mean the current long range target ?
How many 'Official' long range paper targets have there been since 1873 ?
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Re: perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by gunlaker »

desert deuce wrote:Chris: When you say the second Creedmoor Target with the round bull, do you mean the current long range target ?
How many 'Official' long range paper targets have there been since 1873 ?
Sorry for the confusing wording Zack. I should have written "the second Creedmoor target, not the original one with the square bull, but the 1875 target where the square bull was replaced with a 36" round bull (5 points ) surrounded by a 54" center (4 points )".

On the 1875 target a bull counted 5, so a perfect score was 75.

The book "Long Range Rifle Shooting" published by Forest and Stream in 1877 shows a complete list of the International Long Range Matches complete with per target scores and a lot of interesting details. I was only able to find one perfect 1000 yard target among the scores, but I imagine that the later years would have likely produced a few more as skill levels increased.

Chris.
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Re: perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by gunlaker »

Interestingly if you took the 15 shots from that 36" bull and, assuming they were uniformly distributed over the 36" ( which is not likely very fair ), it would score a 135/150 on today's Creedmoor target, which, for ten shots would be a 90.

Realistically, I don't think it's likely that the shots would be uniformly distributed over the 36". I'll bet that they would be tighter in the vertical than the horizontal, which would likely put the score higher than 90. It would be nice to see the shot plot for the original target.

Chris.
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Re: perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by bruce m »

chris,
another interesting thread by you.
we must remember that the odg had no sighters.
also shooting in turns made feedback from previous shots of much less value.
they must have been good wind readers, and understood the barometer well to get the first shot on target with certainty.
not sure, but the 36" bull might have continued into the smokeless era for some time.
how often was a possible shot with a 303, 30/03 or 30/06?
major hinman thought the old rifles had certain advantages, like better sights and sight radius, while the new rifles were way easier to shoot due to reduced recoil.
the old creedmoor was of course supplanted by palma.
i have seen odg plots that held 1 moa vert, and greater width, as well as some that had much worse vert.
actually putting 15 shots in a 36" gorup is not bad even with a modern 308 palma rifle if you watch them shoot in the real world.
keep safe,
bruce.
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Re: perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by beltfed »

A few years ago, when we were still shooting 45 shot Creedmoor at Lodi,

George Remington had shot a score of 141/150 at 1000yds with his (of course) Rem Roller 45-70,
and no less from sitting/tall stix.
I got curious as to how we were doing as compared to the ODGs.
I have Greener's 9th Ed of "The Rifle and its Development-1910.
There are several plots of best Creedmoor targets shot up to that time.
A Dr Scott, American, shot a 74/75 at 1K at Dollymount, Ireland in 1880
which was not bested for 15 yrs.
I scaled the pic of the plot and overlaid it with our current American decimal 1K target
and found that his score would have been about a 140 or so.
So, Geo Remington's score is right up there with the ODGs
beltfed/arnie
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Re: perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by gunlaker »

Bruce, I'm always impressed by how well the top shooters did in the old days. Sometimes I'll get one of my 34" barreled rifles and attempt to duplicate the various shooting positions than I see in the old illustrations. I don't know how they managed it :-).

Arnie, that 141/150 is impressive, especially from sitting! Do you know much about the load used? i.e. PP with a full case of powder, or GG with FFFg? The Rocky Mountain Regional does 15 shot targets which is neat. I think more shots makes for a better test of shooters, although it's harder pulling targets, especially for the older guys.

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Re: perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by desert deuce »

Thank you for the clarification Chris on which target was in question. :?

It is indeed apples and oranges to compare a score on a 36" bull to a score on a 10" bull or twenty inch ten ring if you prefer which would be more or less half the size of a 36" bull. :wink:

Quite different also to compare ten shot groups and scores to fifteen shot groups and scores. I won't go there. :D

But I want to bring up a very important point about the difference between score and group size. It is quite possible to have a ten inch group at 1,000 yards that does not score well. To score well the group has to be both relatively small and well centered and even then picture a 98 with zero X's and as mentioned groups tend to be laterally dispersed rather than round. Bullets have a tendency to land where they will. :roll:

Moreover, I have heard some of the very best 1,000 yard shooters declare that the conditions that exist during the string of record fire affects score to the point that the best shooters at a match should be squadded close to each other and on the same relay. My experience definitely confirms this without a doubt.

For instance, in the shoot off for the 1,000 yard money match at Byers August 2017 it was three shots for score in six minutes with two sighters. My first shot for score a 7 at 9, second shot a 7 at 3, third shot an X. Looking at the shot board there was virtually no vertical distribution, yet my score lost to a shooter with no X's. It is the rings than ding the scores. The rifle and load put the bullet on target exactly where the conditions dictated when the shot was fired. The problem was the sight settings did not coincide with the conditions when the shot was released for the first and second record shots. :( Assuming there was minimal human error. :roll:

A 99 with no X's will beat a 98 with 8 X's all day long. :wink: That one 9 for the 99 might open the group up to 20" and the 98 group could be about half of that and still come in second. Think about that? :?:

I have seen scores in the 40's-60's win a 1,000 yard match. :shock: Conditions, conditions, conditions.

Imagine shooting on the best relay conditions wise at a match at 1,000 yards and winning the match with a 59x0 :?:
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Re: perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by Kurt »

I was pulling the target for beltfed Arnie at Lodi one year and he shot the tightest group I have ever seen shot while in the pit. Arnie was using his .40 and I'm not sure anymore if it was the 900 yard target or the 800 but shot after shot was a 10 and I don't remember the X hits but the very last shot just went into the 9 ring at 5 O-Clock at just a fingers width past the ring. If you could move that 10" X ring down to where his group was they all would have been in that 10" ring.
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Re: perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by beltfed »

It was at 800yds, last relay, 40-65
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Re: perfect 1000 yard targets in the original Creedmoor matches

Post by dbm »

New York Tribune, 15 September 1876, posted diagrams of the best scores by the five teams at the at the three ranges, 800, 900 and 1000 yards. This included Milners 75 x 75 at 1000 yards.

Image

Top to bottom: USA - Ireland - Scotland - Canada - Australia
Left to right: 800 - 900 - 1000 yards

Image

Remember when comparing scores, the 19thC matches were fired unsupported - which is why the back position became so widely used. Today, long range shooting (muzzle loading and BPCR) generally permits slings, wrist rests and cross sticks. Some are also trying faster twist rifling for .45 cal (1 in 16) rather than the more typical 1 in 18 / 1 in 20 during the hey-day of the Creedmoor era.

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