Paper patch tale of tails
- Distant Thunder
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
The following are just my thoughts on patching match ppb, so take it for whatever it's worth.
I see no reason to abandon the folded over patch, it works very well. I don't get too particular about the fold so long as the patch is reasonably tight on the bullet. I will usually have an opening in the center, but not always.
If everything is loaded correctly the bullet, the patch, and the wad(s) should exit the muzzle as a single unit making the (last) wad the actual base that does the stirring of the bullet as it exists. NO gas should be pushing on the fold over or bullet base, the wad should shield those two completely.
As far as getting the fold over flat, that is one of the things I like about sizing my patched bullets. The fold is pressed very flat in the sizing process as well as smoothing out the sides of the patch and making all my bullets fit my bore EXACTLY the same. Even in very humid conditions and, if protected, when it's raining. I hate shooting in the rain.
Once the patched bullets are sized the patch stays wrapped tight through reasonable handling, but I almost always finger seat them shallowly in the already loaded and compressed cases right out of the size die. A very, very light taper crimp and into the ammo box they go.
With the accuracy I'm getting from my loads I see no reason to change anything, but then I've experimented enough in the past and anyone who wants to try this or that has my blessing and interest. Please tell us how it goes.
I like the KISS method of paper patching.
I see no reason to abandon the folded over patch, it works very well. I don't get too particular about the fold so long as the patch is reasonably tight on the bullet. I will usually have an opening in the center, but not always.
If everything is loaded correctly the bullet, the patch, and the wad(s) should exit the muzzle as a single unit making the (last) wad the actual base that does the stirring of the bullet as it exists. NO gas should be pushing on the fold over or bullet base, the wad should shield those two completely.
As far as getting the fold over flat, that is one of the things I like about sizing my patched bullets. The fold is pressed very flat in the sizing process as well as smoothing out the sides of the patch and making all my bullets fit my bore EXACTLY the same. Even in very humid conditions and, if protected, when it's raining. I hate shooting in the rain.
Once the patched bullets are sized the patch stays wrapped tight through reasonable handling, but I almost always finger seat them shallowly in the already loaded and compressed cases right out of the size die. A very, very light taper crimp and into the ammo box they go.
With the accuracy I'm getting from my loads I see no reason to change anything, but then I've experimented enough in the past and anyone who wants to try this or that has my blessing and interest. Please tell us how it goes.
I like the KISS method of paper patching.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
aka Distant Thunder
- kenny s
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
I know of Distant Thunders success', so I'm ordering a .400 sizing die for my 40 70 and will start running the trimmed PP bullet through the die.
having them be all the same is the buzz word for me...
thanks DT. Ken
having them be all the same is the buzz word for me...
thanks DT. Ken
- Distant Thunder
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
kenny,
You can start small with the size die and polish it to a perfect fit to your rifle's bore. Just don't go too far polishing or you'll be starting over again with a new die. It took me a second die to get what I needed for my Hepburn, .4504".
DT
You can start small with the size die and polish it to a perfect fit to your rifle's bore. Just don't go too far polishing or you'll be starting over again with a new die. It took me a second die to get what I needed for my Hepburn, .4504".
DT
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
aka Distant Thunder
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
I'm with DT, I have been sizing my patched bullets too.
Slicks them up, flattens the base foldover and they then always fit my FF brass.
Lee Engineering sells a 0.401 bullet size die off the shelf
Or one can order a special size.-relatively cheap.
beltfed/arnie
Slicks them up, flattens the base foldover and they then always fit my FF brass.
Lee Engineering sells a 0.401 bullet size die off the shelf
Or one can order a special size.-relatively cheap.
beltfed/arnie
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
Push through Lee die here for Dora.
Kenny Wasserburger
Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
- kenny s
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
Hi beltfed,
I have a .401 but the bore of my Shiloh 40 70 is 400, so I ordered the 400. I figure this will be enough.
I have a slip fit in the bore already and don't really want to size them any more, just 'uniform' them and flatten the base.
I get groups of 1 inch or slightly over at 100 ,but get flyers. I want to dump the flyers, and I think it may be the base not being flat after I cut the twist off. surely, sizing them and flattening the base will eliminate that problem.
My old eyes??? well, that may be another thing. The bull I'm using is under 3 inches on my hand made targets. the wad is .060, that's an error while I was jumping up and down! HA Ken
I have a .401 but the bore of my Shiloh 40 70 is 400, so I ordered the 400. I figure this will be enough.
I have a slip fit in the bore already and don't really want to size them any more, just 'uniform' them and flatten the base.
I get groups of 1 inch or slightly over at 100 ,but get flyers. I want to dump the flyers, and I think it may be the base not being flat after I cut the twist off. surely, sizing them and flattening the base will eliminate that problem.
My old eyes??? well, that may be another thing. The bull I'm using is under 3 inches on my hand made targets. the wad is .060, that's an error while I was jumping up and down! HA Ken
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
Ken,
Good shooting. You must be doing something right.
With Iron sights you may very well shoot better groups/reduced fliers using
say a 6" (commercial) black bull, and with appropriately sized
front aperture, with about 1/3 of diameter of bull line of white around the bull.
Take it from another guy with older tired eye.
The folding over of paper over base of bullet may very well help you as compared to the
twisted tail routine. Also, as said earlier, Lee can make you a 0.400 bullet size die with
which you can "slick up" the bullets and at same time "uniform" the base foldover.
beltfed/arnie
Good shooting. You must be doing something right.
With Iron sights you may very well shoot better groups/reduced fliers using
say a 6" (commercial) black bull, and with appropriately sized
front aperture, with about 1/3 of diameter of bull line of white around the bull.
Take it from another guy with older tired eye.
The folding over of paper over base of bullet may very well help you as compared to the
twisted tail routine. Also, as said earlier, Lee can make you a 0.400 bullet size die with
which you can "slick up" the bullets and at same time "uniform" the base foldover.
beltfed/arnie
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- Posts: 1962
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
Kenny,
Good shooting with Iron sights
You may have better yet luck and perhaps avoid fliers
by using a larger , say 6" black commercial targets with
more clean edges, and of course, go to appropriate
sized front aperture, leaving a 1/3 or so of line of white
around the bull.
Might not hurt to just try the 0.401 die on your patched bullets
and go to patching as others described with just maybe a 1/8" or so
foldover on to the base.
then the sizing operation will firm up/even up the base folds.
Again, Lee can make you a 0.400 die if you want . Not expensive.
beltfed/arnie
Good shooting with Iron sights
You may have better yet luck and perhaps avoid fliers
by using a larger , say 6" black commercial targets with
more clean edges, and of course, go to appropriate
sized front aperture, leaving a 1/3 or so of line of white
around the bull.
Might not hurt to just try the 0.401 die on your patched bullets
and go to patching as others described with just maybe a 1/8" or so
foldover on to the base.
then the sizing operation will firm up/even up the base folds.
Again, Lee can make you a 0.400 die if you want . Not expensive.
beltfed/arnie
- kenny s
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
,400 sizing die on order now. $35 Brownells
I got the last one,, rest now on Back order.
I''ll try the folded over patch. something new to me.
when I run the cut tail patch bullet in the 401 die, it really flattens the base, so I think
this is the way to go. the 400 will be just a little tighter.
I'll let you know....
thanks for the advice...Ken
I got the last one,, rest now on Back order.
I''ll try the folded over patch. something new to me.
when I run the cut tail patch bullet in the 401 die, it really flattens the base, so I think
this is the way to go. the 400 will be just a little tighter.
I'll let you know....
thanks for the advice...Ken
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
When I patch bullets, I do not get an uneven lump on the bottom, and the bullets sit on their bases fine, without falling over. I patch damp, and the paper folds over evenly with a disc of lead showing in the centre.
- kenny s
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
Ok D Taylor, good advice. I'll cut the patch smaller and then try to stand them up.
and leave a patch of lead showing.
The .400 die is perfect. PP bullet fits and slides in and our without binding. leaves the patch a little shinny and the base is flat
and smooth. I''ll do it like this from now on.
I push the base down hard to make sure the patch is flat.
Ken
and leave a patch of lead showing.
The .400 die is perfect. PP bullet fits and slides in and our without binding. leaves the patch a little shinny and the base is flat
and smooth. I''ll do it like this from now on.
I push the base down hard to make sure the patch is flat.
Ken
- bpcr shooter
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
Mine are patched 1/16" longer ( so I get a 1/16" fold over). Make sure your getting confetti when you shoot!! look at the patch. let someone else shoot if you can and try to get all of your patch to see exactly whats going on. you may not be cutting the patch very well an that may be the reason for the fliers. After I put the bullet in the case, I twist it, while pushing on it and that flattens it pretty well, but I am taking DT's advice and getting a .4495 size die to see what happens.
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- Distant Thunder
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
kenny,
You've got it right then, "leaves the patch a little shinny and the base is flat and smooth". I also find the dry wrapped patches stay wrapped better after sizing which doesn't hurt.
Just like bpcr shooter I twist my bullets in the direction of the wrap as I seat them. Then I apply a very light taper crimp, put that one in the box and it's on to the next cartridge.
My bullets are snug enough in the bore that if I have to eject an unfired round the bullet will stay in the bore when the case comes out and the bullet I have to push out of the breech with my wiping stick. So the crimp is very light and the bullet is snug but not tight enough to cause chambering problems. They are a perfect fit.
DT
You've got it right then, "leaves the patch a little shinny and the base is flat and smooth". I also find the dry wrapped patches stay wrapped better after sizing which doesn't hurt.
Just like bpcr shooter I twist my bullets in the direction of the wrap as I seat them. Then I apply a very light taper crimp, put that one in the box and it's on to the next cartridge.
My bullets are snug enough in the bore that if I have to eject an unfired round the bullet will stay in the bore when the case comes out and the bullet I have to push out of the breech with my wiping stick. So the crimp is very light and the bullet is snug but not tight enough to cause chambering problems. They are a perfect fit.
DT
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
I have some original Sharps bullets. Pictures on my web site show the wrap: Sharps Long Range Bullets. I also have an original Victorian range box with some Whitworth cylindrical bullets and Metford bullets. Again, pictures on line show the wrap (also below): Muzzle Loader Range Box.
L-R. First two are Whitworth cylindrical. Centre is Metford from same case as the previous bullets. The two on the right are later Metford bullets.
I note in Perrys book ("Modern Observations on Rifle Shooting", 1880) he says that for the Hepburn style "the paper is gathered in at the base, while in the Hyde base pattern the paper is gathered in and then cut out".
Edinburgh gunmaker Daniel Fraser was a member of the Scottish Team to Creedmoor in 1876. He was also a member of the Scottish Eight competing for the Elcho Shield in 1881, 1882, 1883 and 1885. Reporting on his shooting in 1885 it was noted that he had "discovered a new system of wrapping the paper around the bullet, so as to leave the force of explosion to expand the lead more equally than can be done where the paper is twisted in a knot and pushed into the base of the bullet. The system is, we believe, in use in America, but has not as yet been used in this country." (Glasgow Herald, 2 July 1885). I've wondered if this was the 'Hyde base' but not managed to find and original ammunition to verify.
David
L-R. First two are Whitworth cylindrical. Centre is Metford from same case as the previous bullets. The two on the right are later Metford bullets.
I note in Perrys book ("Modern Observations on Rifle Shooting", 1880) he says that for the Hepburn style "the paper is gathered in at the base, while in the Hyde base pattern the paper is gathered in and then cut out".
Edinburgh gunmaker Daniel Fraser was a member of the Scottish Team to Creedmoor in 1876. He was also a member of the Scottish Eight competing for the Elcho Shield in 1881, 1882, 1883 and 1885. Reporting on his shooting in 1885 it was noted that he had "discovered a new system of wrapping the paper around the bullet, so as to leave the force of explosion to expand the lead more equally than can be done where the paper is twisted in a knot and pushed into the base of the bullet. The system is, we believe, in use in America, but has not as yet been used in this country." (Glasgow Herald, 2 July 1885). I've wondered if this was the 'Hyde base' but not managed to find and original ammunition to verify.
David
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Historical Firearms, long range target shooting and military history
Historical Firearms, long range target shooting and military history
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Re: Paper patch tale of tails
and just look how similar those metford bullets are to the true money bullet
some modern money bullets have a smaller meplat, but are not the true design.
metford fired and had fired on his behalf many bullets to come up with that design for best drag characteristics in the velocity zone they occupied, as well as establishing an optimum alloy hardness which was not soft.
thank you david.
keep safe,
bruce.
some modern money bullets have a smaller meplat, but are not the true design.
metford fired and had fired on his behalf many bullets to come up with that design for best drag characteristics in the velocity zone they occupied, as well as establishing an optimum alloy hardness which was not soft.
thank you david.
keep safe,
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus