bullet length, weight, and stability.

[Lone_Star]

Gents,
I have a couple questions regarding shooting paper patch. I have shot grease groove for years in silhouette, but just recently wandered down the paper patch road. I have a mold that casts a bullet sized to match my paper of choice, and have a load that works well, so far. I have only been able to shoot out to 200yd with it and I will take a few rounds to the next silhouette match to try at the rams.

My questions are;
a) my bullet length is 1.460, I am using it in a 45-70 with 18 twist, do I need to have the mold cut back to produce a bullet under 1.450 in length?
b) what about velocity to reach out to 1k? My current bullet/load produces an average of 1260fps, should I bump up the powder load to get closer to 1300fps?

Thanks in advance for any input/opinions provided.

Current load details;
45-70, 18 twist
.445 dia eliptical bullet 1/20 alloy
8# paper, dry wrapped, .100 seated in the case
83gr swiss 1 1/2, .060 veggie wad
light crimp on case mouth to hold bullet (waiting for taper crimp die to use instead)

[bobw]

BFD is the guy you need to talk too as that's about what he does with a 1 in 16 twist. I wouldn't change anything until you try it and ACTUALLY find it lacking. Don't fix what ain't broke until you can see it's BROKE. bobw , good luck

[gunlaker]

If I understand correctly you want to know if it should be good to the ram line? I'd be really surprised if it didn't hold up very well. I have a 1:18 twist .45-70 PP rifle that I've shot a number of different bullets, including a significantly longer BACO 446545 bullet in and it held up very well even in fishtailing winds at 500m. I do not know how well it'd do at longer distances as my longer distance PP shooting has only been done with 1:16 twist .45's.

Chris.

[BFD]

Bob and Lone Star, I shoot a 1.46" bullet in my 18 twist high wall at silhouette. I shoot a 1.51" bullet in my 16 twist 77 sharps at long range.

I would definitely try that load at rams and turkeys.The only thing I question is the 20 to 1 alloy. I prefer 16 to 1.

[Don McDowell]

Lonestar, I too would suggest 16-1 alloy.
Be sure you chamfer the inside of the case mouth. Regarding you crimp pull a loaded round and look to see if the case mouth is leaving a mark on the paper, if it is, that section of the patch will likely be sheared off when the round goes off.
Might try a resized case to see if that will hold the bullet in place and eliminate the need for a crimp of any sort.
Whether or not your load will work at a 1000 , there's only one way to find out, but I would think it will do fine.

[beltfed]

JIm,
Good dissertation. on the PP bullets for gg chamber concepts.
I would agree with your meplat/nose Radius, in the neighborhood of 25-30% of bullet diameter
with Elliptical ogive blended into the "hemi nose" .
I note that the successful 40 cal DDEPP has a total ogive/meplat length of 0725 vs total length of 1.325" for 16 twist
giving about a 55% percent of the total length.
Lately, I would go to a slightly shorter Ell. nose/ogive of about 45-50% of total bullet length.
My thoughts are as yours on this. probably a better transonic and head/tailwind performance,etc.
along with heavier wt.
Also, this gives a slightly longer patch to bore body length for increased concentric alignment on the lands.
along with the added concentricity gained by the patch to FF case I.D./freebore/groove dia of the base band.

beltfed/arnie

[Distant Thunder]

Lone_Star,

The only thing you should consider changing at this point is your alloy, 16:1 would serve you best for target/silhouette loads.

My long range load looks very close to yours.

.45-70 - 3.470" C.O.A.L.
18-twist 34" Badger barrel
525 grain elliptical bullet .444"+ dia. x 1.442" long
9 lb. 100% cotton onion skin .0018-.0020"
Starline brass
.060" LDPE wad
83.0 grains 1 1/2 Swiss
Remington 2 1/2 primer
1295 fps

The rams will be no problem. Also you should be fine at 1000 yards. If you find that you have troubles when the winds are squirrelly you might consider shortening your mold some, but I'd give it a good test drive before that.

There is too much about the actual effect of the nose shape on transonic stability that we don't seem know to be able to say for sure exactly how long a bullet should or shouldn't be. Shooting at 1000 will let you know if there's a problem. I just stay right close to 1.440" in my 18-twist because I know that's a safe length.

DT

[Lone_Star]

Thanks all for your input.
I do plan to go to 16/1 alloy, I am using 20/1 now as that is what is in the pot. I also plan to test with a plastic wad as some have reported a touch better accuracy with them. I am using as-fired Starline brass now with no re-sizing other than a very light crimp to hold the bullet in the case. I am interested in the dual-diameter bullets that have been discussed, and may eventually go that way, but for now am just getting started and enjoying it. My intent is to use this load for Creedmoor matches, but do not have anything greater than 700yds available for testing.

[Distant Thunder]

All I've ever had for my load development and testing is my backyard 200 yard range. I will say that if my loads shot well at 200 they tended to shoot well out to 1000. Some did better at extended ranges than others, but 200 was far enough to tell if the load was worth testing at 1000. That's what matches are for, load development! I believe shooting at less than 200 yards is next to useless for testing and development.

I haven't changed anything in my Creedmoor load in the past 4 or 5 years. Oh wait, I did change one thing, I started sizing my bullets after patching, but that's it. Life is so much easier, I load, I go to the match and everything works! Well, I did go back to bore pigs, but that is just a time saving thing. They allow me to stay with a condition better than wiping three times with patches between each shot. More time in the rifle and less time fiddling around wiping.

DT

[bruce m]

DT,
it is believed that precession and nutation takes place out to 140 to 150 yds.
while this is going on, bullets are steering themselves a little, like darts.
at 140 yards, they go into the yaw of repose,nose a little to the right and high for a rh twist barrel.
only when in this stable form of flight will you get a true indication of accuracy further out.
your 200 yds is a good place to be.
you are close anough to avoid all sorts of atmospheric conditions, but your bullets have "gone to sleep".
if they won't group there, they won't group further out.
as long as your velocities are close.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Distant Thunder]

Thank you, Bruce, I knew there was a reason for 200 being a good choice even if it is the only one I have.

DT

[Kurt]

I only have 200 yards but I think 300 would be better but what I work up the best here on my 200 yard range seems to work good at the 1K but I see the shorter range of 700 & 800 not as good as the 1000 for some reason. My loads score higher at the 1K

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

Look at my scores from the Cup and the Regional. See those 900 scores? Not my best for sure. I've had that problem off and on over the years. I think an adjustment to my velocity might fix that. There is just something going on at that speed at 900 yards that has a big hole in the middle of my group, it's about the size of the 10-ring! It can be frustrating at times. I did better at 1000 and 800, not so much at 900.

The one miss I had during the Cup was at 900 on day 2. I got caught by a reversal between the scope and the rifle. I didn't see where it went and the berm was so wet I couldn't find the impact with the target down. I went back to zero, looked through the scope, put in what I saw and got a lucky 7 at 5:00. Dialed back to center and the rest was good, but the damage was already done. Could have been a lot worse though. 900 yards was a struggle for me all three days.

DT

[Kurt]

Jim the close (700-800) has puzzled me since I been shooting the gong shoots and Lodi. Pigs give me a problem staying on them and no problem with the turkeys so go figure. The coming Alma match I will pack the .40-65 and leave the .45-90 home so it will be a new tooth grinder for me I won't pack to much for this match because my Daughter will be bringing the cookie munchers Sunday up from Indiana for us to take them to the Yellowstone and the gun stuff will go back with her to make room for bikes and other stuff they will be bringing It will be a interesting trip


But if you have an answer for my range shortcomings let me know the answer LOL......Kurt

[beltfed]

Kurt,
I am at this point in life thinking that the answer to our range shortcomings is
broadly "Oldtimers Disease" . We aren't getting any younger and in better health.
Less steady Having to sit on a stool to shoot. Having to "dodge" the floaters in the eye,
etc. g

beltfed/arnie