45 cal Paper patch bullet diameter

[CBarnard]

What diameter bullets are you paper patch shooters using in your Shiloh 45-70's, 45-90's etc.? I am thinking about trying pp in my new Shiloh 45-90 when I get it.
Thanks,
Chris

[BFD]

It depends on your paper, but .443- .444" seems to work best.

[martinibelgian]

Chris,

2 schools here - bore-diameter bullets (i.e. land diameter), or groove-dia. bullets. I tried both in my no.2 Musket match rifle, and for the moment there is a small advantage to the groove-dia. bullet. Which doesn't mean the bore-dia. bullet doesn't shoot well...
With a 45-70, it is possible to load more powder with bore-dia. bullets, whereas powder capacity could be an issue with the other type. No issues with my no.2 musket or 45-90 for that matter, powder capacity might actually become a liability due to the fact that the bore-dia. bullet usually is seated pretty shallowly in the case. But the naked bullet diameter depends on the paper you are using - varying usually from .443-.444 for the bore dia. variety, and .450-.452 for groove dia.
With patch, the aim it to bring it up to .451 or .458 - which is in function of the paper.

[ian45662]

I am not shooting a shiloh....yet....but rather a c sharps. I am shooting a bullet that drops out of the mould .445 or so. After wet patching with the seth cole 55w paper its .4505 or there abouts. Just my own preference but like the thinner paper but I have shot .443ish bullets with 9# onion skin and they shoot fine for me also.

[MSalyards]

Kirk had me get .442 and I have had pretty good luck with it. Runs about 535 gr. out of a BACO mold.

[Distant Thunder]

Just my opinion:

For target loads with the best accuracy potential you want to end up with a patched bullet that is just a bit snug in the bore of YOUR rifle. That bullet should be seated out as far as possible so that most of the bullets full diameter is in perfect alignment with the bore when the light comes on.

That fit is the result of two things, YOUR paper and the as cast diameter of YOUR bullet. The best way to arrive at that fit is to get the paper that you plan to use and get it in sufficient quantity that you won't run out it your shooting life. If I were just starting out and was looking for a readily available paper I would probably go with Seth Cole 55Y. I haven't been using it for very long but it seems to be a very good patching paper. My tests show it to add .0040 to .0045" to the diameter of the bullet.

You need to accurately measure the BORE diameter (the diameter at the top of the rifling lands) of YOUR rifle. I do this with precision gage pins and a sense of feel developed over the past 43 years in working with said pins.

Then you need to choose a mold maker that can make a paper patched bullet mold in whatever diameter you specify when cast from 16 to 1. You are probably best served using 16:1, don't waste time with softer alloys.


You should end up with a patched bullet that fits YOUR rifle as it should. After that it's just learning to patch the bullets well, pretty simple, and to load paper patched bullets. That last part is so simple I just don't understand the effort by so many to make it into some sort of voodoo magic or rocket science.

Or, you can just order whatever is the most poplar size bullet that others are using and buy some dime store paper and hope it works, but it probably won't.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

DT

[Distant Thunder]

I tried to edit my post to tell you this:

I use a .444" diameter bullet in my Shiloh .45-90 and a .445" in my .45-70 Hepburn, but doesn't give you any information you can use.

DT

[CBarnard]

Thanks all for your input. I can buy in some .444" pp bullets to try out for starters and at first I thought they might be a tad on the large size but not what I have been reading in your replys.
I will of course slug the barrel when I receive my new rifle, but even after is ready to ship from Shiloh, it takes a lot longer to get it to the UK and through customs etc..
It will be worth the wait I'm sure.
Cheers,
Chris

[ian45662]

You will need pin gauges to get an accurate measurement of your bore but being that it’s a shiloh your gonna be real close to .450

[Distant Thunder]

One thing I've been doing when trying to decide what diameter ppb I need to fall from the mold in order to give the proper fit is to measure the bore, subtract 4x the thickness of my chosen paper and then take a piece of that paper and wrap it around a gage pin of the resulting diameter.

So let's say I have a .45 caliber rifle and a .4498" gage pin slips in a little bit loose, but a .4508" pin won't go. You can figure your bore is somewhere between .4500" and .4506" (roughly). I judge the feel of the pin and make an educated guess as to the actual bore diamter. Then if I'm using .002" paper and I know that it will add about .008" to the patched bullet. I subtract .008 from .450" and get .442". I take a .4418" pin and dry wrap, I dry wrap all my ppb, around the pin 2 times. I mic the final diameter and make an adjustment in pin size and repeat. My 9 lb. paper will add about .007" to the bullet, it's just the nature of wrapping the paper around the bullet that causes some thinning of the paper. No reason to explain that all here, just accept it.

If we say that the bore is actually .4505" diameter I want as cast diameter of .444". That plus .007", two wraps of my paper, will give me a .451" diameter patched bullet. That's where I want to be. I'll have the mold cut by a good mold maker to drop my bullets at .444". The shrink has to be added into the cavity diameter and that varies some with alloy, the mold maker will do that. I'll have a push through sizing die made that is just a tick over or right at .4502-ish. That should just smooth out the paper and give me a perfect fit into my bore. It can be a bit of a pain to get the die diameter spot on but once it's there you're good. It might be best when ordering a die to have it made just a bit small, say .001-.002", because it's a fairly simple matter to polish out even a few thousndths of an inches with a poor man's hone and a hand drill and you'll have a better die for your efforts. It takes a bit of practice but it's not that hard. I really don't know what kind of tolerance size dies are made to, I make all mine own and I work as close as I have to.

Finding what diameter I need my bullets to cast at when using a certain paper has been much easier using this method and gets me where I want to be with fewer steps and less cost. All paper is different and each will add a different amount to the bullet diameter. It is probably best to get a paper that you know is a good patching and build a mold to fit it rather than spend a goodly amount of money on a mold and then try to find a paper that makes it fit your bore and hopefully is also a good paper for patching, not all are.

DT

[bruce m]

what dt said.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

.444 and .446 bullets wrapped in Seth Cole 55w work well in the 45 shiloh barrels

[CBarnard]

Thanks all for your input and help, at least I have an idea of where to start. One snag and that is that the Seth Cole 55W paper is not available here in the UK, I do have the Buffalo Arms paper which is about .0025" thick but I believe that the S Cole paper is thinner. Please can someone advise on that.
Thanks,
Chris

[BFD]

Thanks all for your input and help, at least I have an idea of where to start. One snag and that is that the Seth Cole 55W paper is not available here in the UK, I do have the Buffalo Arms paper which is about .0025" thick but I believe that the S Cole paper is thinner. Please can someone advise on that.
Thanks,
Chris

Search on Ebay for "onion skin paper" and look for those that are listed as 9 pound papers with 25 to 100% cotton content.

Alternatively, look for "tracing paper" in rolls on amazon.com. These are typically 8 pound papers, and slightly thinner. Get the paper, then the mould. Bee Papers and Stadtler are two good ones though I may have not spelled their names correctly.

[bpcr shooter]

This was taken from castboolits web site not sure if its all still current but its something.......



MEASURED*
DESCRIPTION THICKNESS WEIGHT COLOR PURCHASE SOURCE AS OF 03/11/2011
ALVIN Lightweight Tracing Paper, Roll, #55Y-G .0013" 7 LB. Yellow Online, Alvin dealer
ALVIN Lightweight Tracing Paper, Roll, #55W-G .0015" 8 LB. White Online, Alvin dealer
Canson Tracing Paper, Vellum, 14" x 17" Pad .0017" Unkown White Jerry's Artarama, Tempe, AZ
Canson Tracing Paper, 12" x 20 Yds. Roll, # 701-130 .0013"` Unkown Canary Jerry's Artarama, Tempe, AZ
Canson Tracing Paper, 12" x 20 Yds. Roll, # 701-158 .0015" Unkown White Jerry's Artarama, Tempe, AZ
Number 107 Canary Tracing Paper Roll, #341-210 .0013" Unkown Canary http://www.jerrysartarama.com
Tru-Cal 100% Linen, Paper Patch, 4" x 5" sheets .0011" Unkown White ebay (out of production)
BACO 100% Cotton Onion Skin Paper, 8 1/2 x 11, # PP100 .0022" 9 LB. Blue BACO http://www.buffaloarms.com
Eaton Corrasable Heavy Weight Bond, # 36-420-10, 8 1/2 x 11 sheets .0040" 20 LB. White Chandler paper store in 1980's (gone)
Eaton Corrasable Medium Weight Bond, # 36-416-10, 8 1/2 x 11 sheets .0032" 16 LB. White Chandler paper store in 1980's (gone)
Esleeck 100% Cotton Fidelity Onion Skin This is the same same as BACO Blue p/n PP100. BACO bought up a whole truckload and repackaged each 500 sheet reem. .0020" 9 LB. Blue Chandler paper store in 1980's (gone)
The Paper Mill Store, 100% Cotton Onion Skin, #3-ONSKN100-P .0022" 9 LB. White www.thepapermillstore.com
Seth Cole Regular Tracing Paper, # 56 .0019" 25 LB. White Detriech-Post 626-289-5021
Seth Cole Tole Sketch # 55W, 18" x 8yd. Roll .0015" 8 LB. White Detriech-Post 626-289-5021
Seth Cole Lightweight Tracing Paper, # 55W, 12"x 20 yd. roll .0014" 8 LB. White Detriech-Post 626-289-5021
Micro Chamber Intriving Paper, # ATAFMC78, 6 1/2" x 8 1/2" sheet. (above Micro paper was advertized as being .0025" thick) .0033" unknown White www.bagsunlimited.com
Commercial coffee filter paper .003" unknown White commercial coffee machine @ work
R.C.E. PP Paper (Esleek 100% Fidelity Onion Skin) .0022" 9 lb. White Richard Corbin, R.C.E. Swaging
Peca Industries lens paper, Type 1, class 5, #LP-46, 4" x 6" sheet .0011" unknown White www.pecaproducts.com
* calibrated 0-1" Browne & Sharpe micrometer