Methods to fire form brass

[Trigger1212]

Gents

Getting geared up for my 40-65 build and would like some direction on different methods of fire forming.

I HAVE fireformed in the past but it’s always been for smokeless rounds. In those cases it’s always been a hunting or varmint round and new-plus-ultra accuracy was not the first requirement. And I was usually able to use the fire forming load for the final intended purpose so did not technically waste any components. The last one I did was when forming 22 Hornet brass to 17 Hornet.

My fireforming loads were exceptionally accurate, consistently around 1/2” at 100. I was actually hoping I could do that well with the final load (I did!).

Moving to the 40-65, I’ve got 500 pieces of new Starline brass that I annealed. I would like to know if there is a process to fire form the brass without having to essentially waste 500 cast bullets.

Is there a way to effectively use something like cream of wheat on a straight walled case, even if it is slightly knock-kneed looking)?

Maybe the only way to get a really good fireforming job done is to load em with bullets and have at it. If so that is what I’ll do. I want it done right, but if their is an easier way I’d like to give it a try.

Cheers!

Wade

[bryany]

I had to fire my new Starline twice to get it to fully form. I did not look for a shortcut. You don't have to use perfect bullets for the job but I think you need to load them like you mean it. Might be a good way to use up odds and ends of BP and second rate bullets. I'd work on shooting half of your brass, 500 rds is more than I need unless I want to shoot one gun for NRA silhouette nationals. The biggest pain in the butt was waiting for the barrel to cool down between groups. I shot 25 at a time blowtubing, then wiped the bore well and let it cool down. The job would have gone better in the winter months but I needed it done and it was summer. Depending on what matches you are shooting, one firing might be enough to start loading match ammo. Neck tension on the first loading was pretty tight and accuracy showed.

Bryan

[rgchristensen]

I'd make a neck expanding plug that will just slip into your sized case, stepping up after a bit to maybe 0.002" over your bullet diameter, load up some ammo, and go off to the matches. Expand the cases to where the bullets will go in far enough to give the desired OAL and shoot 'em. The initial straight section of the expander will keep everything straight for the final expansion. 500 rd seems like a LOT of brass, which will take ca 30# of bullets. I have been shooting the same 200 rd for over 15 years,

CHRIS
RGChristensen

[gunlaker]

Wade I did pretty much the same thing as Bryan for my .40-65's although no blow tubes. I just wasted the extra wiping patches . BTW, I started with .45-70 brass and kept them a little long for the first two firings. You can just use cheap powder like plain Goex rather than wasting Swiss and match grade primers.

Chris.

[Coltsmoke]

I took my brass and shot around 60 of them and hit on a good load for the rifle with the new brass. I shot the rest of them in competition and done very well and did not waste anything.

[Trigger1212]

Well it sounds like no short cuts so will be doing it the old fashioned way, load and shoot!

1. Yes, 500 pieces is a lot of brass. I've always been in the "If it's worth doing it's worth doing to excess" camp. I HATE to run out of anything and wanted to make sure I eliminated one variable to have one lot of brass that should last me the rest of my life. In addition I may also have some brass tied up in hunting loads. Finally, somewhere along the line I'm sure some brass will get screwed up, mangled or lost. With 500 pieces it's much easier to get yourself to throw a questionable piece out rather that hanging on to it and hoping it won't throw a flyer on the next go around.

2. With the brass annealed I'm HOPING that one FF session will do the trick.

3. WTH, you cast less than perfect bullets?!! Who does that?!! I think my first approach will to full length resize all brass, then use a necking plug to get the bullet fit I want and then see if I can come up with a load that shoots well and then just fire away. Might just get luck like I did with my 17 Hornet!

Thanks for all the info.

Cheers!

Wade

[gunlaker]

Wade is it a Shiloh? If so you will find load development very easy

58gr Swiss 1.5, 0.060" LDPE wad, Saeco #740 bullet 20-1, CCI BR2. Seat bullet to touch lands.
62gr Swiss 1.5., 0.060" LDPE wad, BACO 409400M4, 16:1, CCI BR2, Seat bullet out as far as it will go and still allow closing the breech block without excessive effort.

I've used both loads successfully in two Shiloh's. One a 1:14 twist 32" barrel, and the other a 1:16 twist 30" barrel.

I've also used both loads with slip fit ( zero neck tension ), or 0.001" neck tension. Works well either way, but I like the 0.001" a little more I think.

Chris.

[Michael Johnson]

I spent my first year fire forming 45-70 cases at rifle matches. Makes it easy, no wasted components. Some of those loads shot pretty good! I made a lot of incremental improvements by making adjustments to fire-forming loads (primers, wads, powder load, seating depth).

[beltfed]

Wade,
I used cheap 41 Mag, .410" dia pistol bullets for fire forming both my 40-65 and my 40-72 brass.
Used a charge of IMR 4759 for the job rather than waste BP.
Now 4759 is discontinued. YOu could try 4227 or AA5744 instead. Check the latest Lyman Loading manual No50
beltfed/arnie

[Trigger1212]

Chris, yep it is a Shiloh 77, will be going into production shortly.

Arnie

I am actually one of the few that believe it’s actually beneficial to break in a bore by shooting 60-100 copper jacketed rounds before switching to cast. Shiloh makes great barrels but any barrel will have receive some benefit from a bit of break in.

Does no good to shoot copper on copper so entails a lot of cleaning.

W

[Clarence]

I just finished fire-forming a big lot of brass for a Browning .40-65. Basically sized down the .45-70 brass just enough to fit the chamber, determined the OAL to seat the bullets slightly but firmly into the lands. I loaded several loads, beginning with zero compression and going up to ~0.150" compression. Turned out that this rifle liked the load with no compression. I loaded up the rest of the brass with that load, and my grandson did the majority of fire-coming in practice and the scope match at Raton, finishing the last day with 8/10 rams on the last two banks of five (his hits had no more than 6" vertical dispersion). Now they are clean, sized with the die backed out 2 turns, and expanded for 0.001-0.002" neck tension. I'll repeat the same basic test to determine the best permanent load. They appear to need 1-1.5 grains more powder for zero compression after fire-forming.

Clarence

[powderburner]

The best thing about fireforming 500 pieces of brass is the time you get to spend shooting your rifle.

[Pink Panther]

Just curious. What was your annealing process on the 500 cases?

[Trigger1212]

Panther

I annealed them with my Bench Sourch annealing machine. Fantastic piece of kit, absolutely love it. Not a cheap date but it works every time, totally adjustable and 100% consistent. I just started a thread on an easy, cheap and effective upgrade to it.

Should be just a couple threads down.

Cheers!

Wade

[beltfed]

Wade,
I did a lot of the shoot and clean with JB,etc, break-in of a number of rifle barrels
over the years.
Then I ran into a very interesting thread by "Onendagua" on, I believe "Cast Boolits" forum:
Using a Bore Snake of appropriate caliber, one saturates the "wad" section with
Turtle Wax "Chrome cleaner" and draw thru the bore 10 times, of course from breech.
Then re-anoint with the Chrome cleaner and do another 10 times, etc
until you have done the draw thru 100 times.
Really burnishes the bore .
Most recent was an inexpensive 300 Blackout barrel/upper. It shot really well
after the process. Very little fouling afterwards with copper bullets,
and now shooting some 247 gr cast bullets well.
beltfed/arnie