Why is ladle pour better than bottom pour?

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mdeland
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Re: Why is ladle pour better than bottom pour?

Post by mdeland »

I haven't read all the replies so this may be redundant concerning manufactured molds as opposed to custom built .
Production molds are almost universally cut with cherry's which have the mold halves closed over them while rotating in closure jigs.
Custom molds usually are lathe bored after the two halves have been precisely fit with pins and vents machined into them. This produces very accurate and round molds which in turn explains why they generally release fresh casts much better.
Also custom molds usually provide much thicker sprue plates which produce much better bullet bases because they are better heat sinks and the rigidness shears the bases cleaner.
Production molds usually can be improved quite a bit if they are lapped and thicker sprue plates are installed.
All molds will improve if the top of the block, the underside of the sprue plate and the inside of the pour hole are coated with the graphite from a carpenters pencil.
Aviator
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Re: Why is ladle pour better than bottom pour?

Post by Aviator »

Do you pour into the mold, or do you insert the ladle spout into the sprue plate and rotate the mold and ladle up?

I have been bottom-pouring, and just now converting to ladle pour, (along with converting to black powder), and am still experimenting trying to find what works best for me.
MSalyards
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Re: Why is ladle pour better than bottom pour?

Post by MSalyards »

I insert and rotate then lift a little at about a 6 count to pour a puddle.
Clarence
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Re: Why is ladle pour better than bottom pour?

Post by Clarence »

Mike,

A couple of my best casting moulds come from Fred Leeth. All his moulds are cherry-cut.

I believe that one of the primary reasons some production moulds don't release bullets is that the block manufacturing tolerances and tooling aren't kept precise enough to have the mould properly centered during the cherrying process. It doesn't take more than a very few thousandths misalignment to cause a newly-cast bullet to catch consistently in one half of the mould.

I've had Lyman moulds that cast as well as any custom mould. Sadly, they are the exception...

Clarence
mdeland
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Re: Why is ladle pour better than bottom pour?

Post by mdeland »

Clarence, Pope made and used cherry's to cut his molds so the technique can certainly be used for precision mold making but it's just that closing mold halves around a spinning cherry is more suitable for mass production and holding tight tolerance (which in mass production have a range) is more difficult than one at a time, lathe bored, custom molds.
I have made molds using both techniques and that is my opinion.
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Dusty Ed
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Re: Why is ladle pour better than bottom pour?

Post by Dusty Ed »

HOWDY FELLERS
I hate Casting but I do because I couldn't afford to buy from a casting company, so in 2003 Bought Magma Master Caster an haven't looked back.
It has a 40lb. pot when filled the top ,it takes me 1 1/2 hrs. to empty it, I get 15 lb. of sprues ,25 lbs.of bullets,I get about 10% throw backs.
You are not leaning over the pot breathing any fumes or sweating your butt off.
I have won many matches an still shooting at 79 years young.
If you have any Questions ask an will answer the best I can.
Dusty Ed
mdeland
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Re: Why is ladle pour better than bottom pour?

Post by mdeland »

One of the tests I like to use for comparison of mold quality is how round the actual casts drop from the mold. Virtually all of my production molds are several thousands more out of round than are the custom molds I have from Paul Jones, Veral Smith and Brooks.
A quick two axis cross mic at the base band clear of the paring line will tell the story instantly and usually cherry cut molds produce casts that are several thousands out of round.
The lathe bored are usually less than a thousands out.
Aviator
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Re: Why is ladle pour better than bottom pour?

Post by Aviator »

Well, I have become a believer in ladle casting.

I started late in life, only buying my first rifle about 6 years ago. And here I am now casting bullets for my Shiloh....

I tried ladle casting a few years ago, with a ladle I bought from the company that I bought my alloy from. It was called a Rowell ladle I believe, and had a spout that poured a stream coming from the bottom of the ladle, but did not have the nipple that you would insert into the sprue plate. At that time I was casting smaller bullets for 32-20 and 38-55, and was not weighing them. But, I did not seem to be getting any better looking bullets than I did with bottom pour, so went with the somewhat easier and faster bottom pour.

Now, I am casting for 40-65 and 45-70 for long range, and am weighing bullets. With the bottom pour, I have routinely been getting about 3 grain variation during a session, and sorting by weight into 1 grain sets.

So, at your urging, I am trying ladle pour again, but this time with a ladle that has the nipple to insert into the sprue plate.
And, I am getting the best looking bullets that I ever had, and the every bullet in a casting session is within a 1 grain total spread, with most in a 0.5 grain total spread.

So thanks!
rgchristensen
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Re: Why is ladle pour better than bottom pour?

Post by rgchristensen »

It's important to remember that it is not the weight variation that matters, but that if one bullet is lighter than the heaviest bullet, it is MISSING some metal somewhere. That can't be good.

CHRIS
RGChristensen
johnl
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Re: Why is ladle pour better than bottom pour?

Post by johnl »

rgchristensen wrote:It's important to remember that it is not the weight variation that matters, but that if one bullet is lighter than the heaviest bullet, it is MISSING some metal somewhere. That can't be good.

CHRIS
RGChristensen

Hey Chris, when I cast 780 grain +/- bullets for my big 50 a couple of grains on either side of the line, “it don't make me no nevermind” :lol:
mdeland
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Re: Why is ladle pour better than bottom pour?

Post by mdeland »

If the diameters and fill out are uniform than voids can be the only variance and when they are off center it acts just like an out of balance wheel.
I once weighed a number of bullets out of a box of Sierra match kings which have always been super accurate in any rifle and caliber tried. The variance was rather often up to 3 whole grains which surprised me and this in bullets weighing 150-180 grains which is a much larger percentage of overall weight than when cast bullets weighing 550 grains and being out the same amount.
rgchristensen
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Re: Why is ladle pour better than bottom pour?

Post by rgchristensen »

Mdeland:
As I said, it is not that the DIFFERENCE in weight, per se, is important, but whether the bullet is missing some metal and thereby might be out of balance. (or might go out of balance when the void collapses on firing) The Sierra Match Kings are swaged bullets, and as such, won't have any voids within. Such bullets can vary a considerable amount in weight and still shoot very well. CAST bullets, OTOH, may well have such voids. The late Charlie Dell, on being shown voids in his cast bullets, went to swaging his schuetzen bullets.
My own practice is to use weighing only as a check on casting technique. Folks who weigh bullets and segregate them into lots that WEIGH the same, are just fooling themselves. It is only the maximum weight bullets that can be perfect.
It is easy to look for voids in cast bullets -- simply grab the bullet lengthwise in a vise, just below center, and commence to shave off lead with a sharp wood chisel. Common voids will be found near the center-line of the bullet, about 1mm diameter and up to 4-6mm long.

CHRIS
RGChristensen
LazyM
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Re: Why is ladle pour better than bottom pour?

Post by LazyM »

And how does the melt temperature figure into this equation? If one uses a standard electric melting pot, the pot will "cycle" with the temperature of the lead varying by, perhaps?, a few degrees? How will the hotter pour vary from the cooler pour? Can this affect voids? Or does it simply affect weight?
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