Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
-
- Posts: 2364
- Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:29 pm
- Location: Central Texas
- Contact:
Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
Reading Coltsmoke’s thread on his success with paper patching brings up questions in my mind on the pros and cons of PP’ing to groove or bore diameter. I know this has been discussed in the past but I’ve never read or heard of a good explanation as to why most prefer PP’ing to bore diameter. I do remember reading comments from Dan Theodore on PP’ing & he recommended patching to groove diameter. So, you expert PP shooters, how about some good solid reasons why patching to bore is better than patching to groove?
The only advantage I can think of is patching to bore allows for seating the bullets much further out for more powder capacity. So how about in a rifle with an extended throat (freebore) – wouldn’t groove-patched bullets be the way to go? I need some enlightenment from you PP experts.
Wayne
The only advantage I can think of is patching to bore allows for seating the bullets much further out for more powder capacity. So how about in a rifle with an extended throat (freebore) – wouldn’t groove-patched bullets be the way to go? I need some enlightenment from you PP experts.
Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
http://www.texas-mac.com
http://www.texas-mac.com
- J.B.
- Posts: 644
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:31 pm
- Location: Australia
Re: Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
..Firstly... definately 'not' an expert pp shooter but I have dabbled periodically with them and have been revisiting the idea with a little more conviction of late. I've always patched to bore and had rifles with no extended throat . Even my average results with this method have been encouraging...and my better results ...well... inspiring I gather from the information that has come forward from various members that patching to groove can be of benefit with an extended free bore or throat. This may well be another opening where the dual diameter bullet can come into use. It certainly aids in the ease of case preparation as either no...or very little neck sizing is required to hold the patched bullet with light neck tension. I guess I patch to bore as thats the way it 'was done in the day' and yes, it allows for over 80 percent of the projectile to be lodged neatly between the lands awaiting lift off. Changing to groove diameter would result in a new bullet mould or two and the projectile likely being seated further into the case. Possibly a good idea in some arenas but not so much for long range target work. jmo....and probably not worth paying for
J.B.
J.B.
"an experimental weapon..with experimental ammunition ? ...Lets experiment "
-
- Posts: 1609
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:20 pm
Re: Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
I do both, and they both have their pro's and cons. However, as the situation now is, the groove-dia. bullet seems to have a slight accuracy advantage. Also, in the larger-capacity cases, it allows the use of less powder - which can be as much a disadvantage too, of course... Especially when using the 45-70.
Pro of groove-dia.:
- the groove-dia. bullet, less expansion required
- less powder needed (or possible)
- Better for standard GG chambers (no neck sizing,...)
Cons:
- More critical as to COAL, which is not the case for the bore-dia. bullet
- uses up powder capacity
- More sensitive to chamber misalignment (which is more theoretical...)
Also, I seem to have somewhat less fouling with groove-dia., but this could be because I'm using less powder...
I'm fortunate in that i can use cases optimized for both, and in my rifle, the groove-dia. bullet has a slight accuracy edge - for now. However, both will produce what I would consider match-winning accuracy.
Also important - none of my rifles has a freebore or extended throat...
Pro of groove-dia.:
- the groove-dia. bullet, less expansion required
- less powder needed (or possible)
- Better for standard GG chambers (no neck sizing,...)
Cons:
- More critical as to COAL, which is not the case for the bore-dia. bullet
- uses up powder capacity
- More sensitive to chamber misalignment (which is more theoretical...)
Also, I seem to have somewhat less fouling with groove-dia., but this could be because I'm using less powder...
I'm fortunate in that i can use cases optimized for both, and in my rifle, the groove-dia. bullet has a slight accuracy edge - for now. However, both will produce what I would consider match-winning accuracy.
Also important - none of my rifles has a freebore or extended throat...
-
- Posts: 2789
- Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:36 pm
Re: Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
Wayne, the best reason to use bore diameter paper patched bullets is because so many said it could never be done. Of course, it was done, and done well back in the beginning. But in modern times, it was a road not traveled and often derided as not even worthy of traveling. But it has been a long and very satisfying road to travel for me.
Brent
Brent
- Don McDowell
- Posts: 7633
- Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:04 pm
- Location: Ft. Laramie Wy
- Contact:
Re: Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
I'm of the opinion that patching to groove makes the right bullet diameter and paper thickness much more critical than patching to bore. Patching to bore you need to be more attentive to wads to keep from having problems due to gas cutting on the bullet base and sides.
Patching to groove is like Gert said, you use up a lot of case space by necessity, patching to bore you can seat deeper if that's what the rifle says it likes.
The long throats from the early days of our relearning this paper patching stuff, is a big contributor to the modern day thoughts that paper patching isn't accurate enough for competition.
Don't be fooled, a so called standard grease groove chamber will shoot paper patch just fine with either groove or bore diameter bullets.
I also find paper patch shooting much more enjoyable than shooting greasers.
Patching to groove is like Gert said, you use up a lot of case space by necessity, patching to bore you can seat deeper if that's what the rifle says it likes.
The long throats from the early days of our relearning this paper patching stuff, is a big contributor to the modern day thoughts that paper patching isn't accurate enough for competition.
Don't be fooled, a so called standard grease groove chamber will shoot paper patch just fine with either groove or bore diameter bullets.
I also find paper patch shooting much more enjoyable than shooting greasers.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger
-
- Posts: 8428
- Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
- Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois
Re: Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
I agree with Brent.
I have been doing both ways and settled on bore diameter. Back when I shot a lot of WW alloys the groove diameter worked best because of the hardness of the alloy it would not upset enough to hold the grooves and a lot of the groove diameters needed some cylinder free bore or a long cone shaped ahead if the leads.
The bore diameters are a little more friendly shooting the softer alloys in the range of 1/14 and softer with a verity of different ogives.
Now that the old WW are just about gone I have cast some from the new WW with zinc And I have not found any problems using it except stuff floating on top in the pot but this can be controlled with fluxing other then the normal wax or other commercial stuff.
Kurt
I have been doing both ways and settled on bore diameter. Back when I shot a lot of WW alloys the groove diameter worked best because of the hardness of the alloy it would not upset enough to hold the grooves and a lot of the groove diameters needed some cylinder free bore or a long cone shaped ahead if the leads.
The bore diameters are a little more friendly shooting the softer alloys in the range of 1/14 and softer with a verity of different ogives.
Now that the old WW are just about gone I have cast some from the new WW with zinc And I have not found any problems using it except stuff floating on top in the pot but this can be controlled with fluxing other then the normal wax or other commercial stuff.
Kurt
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
-
- Posts: 293
- Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:22 am
- Location: Buffalo, WY
Re: Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
Were chambers with free bore for PP common in the 1800’s or was that a late 20th century concept for PP?
-
- Posts: 2789
- Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:36 pm
Re: Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
No. The long freebores that were supposed to be paper patch chambers were popularized in early Shiloh Sharps rifles. I had one and recently posted a rough drawing of its chamber. Ernie Stallman once told me that the early Shiloh chamber was responsible for the creation of Badger Barrels I know I bought one for that reason.mike herth wrote:Were chambers with free bore for PP common in the 1800’s or was that a late 20th century concept for PP?
-
- Posts: 11708
- Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:47 pm
Re: Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
I've messed with pp some as well and like the method a lot. For me it has mostly been experimenting with the .303 cartridge and various patch materials, even teflon tape which didn't work out very well. Even designed and cut a bullet mold for it once that did hot work out well. I'll try it again one of these days.
I like the ease and neatness of not having to mess with grease for one thing and now with the dry wrapping some folks are using it is even more attractive.
If I remember correctly early .303 bullets were paper wrapped, No?
I like the ease and neatness of not having to mess with grease for one thing and now with the dry wrapping some folks are using it is even more attractive.
If I remember correctly early .303 bullets were paper wrapped, No?
-
- Posts: 3841
- Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:52 pm
Re: Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
This is correct and that chamber set paper patching back years in it's renewal, use in BPCR target shooting and reestablishing it's dominance as the superior method to LR performance. Brent has all ready shown this at Lodi ,Wis.1000 yd matches and has converted most of the talent that shoots there to patching to bore and a wiping regime . Just like they did in the 1870-80's. They had greasers back then but nobody used them ,wonder why?BFD wrote:No. The long freebores that were supposed to be paper patch chambers were popularized in early Shiloh Sharps rifles. I had one and recently posted a rough drawing of its chamber. Ernie Stallman once told me that the early Shiloh chamber was responsible for the creation of Badger Barrels I know I bought one for that reason.mike herth wrote:Were chambers with free bore for PP common in the 1800’s or was that a late 20th century concept for PP?
bobw
bobw
-
- Posts: 1419
- Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2002 9:59 pm
- Location: East of yesterday and West of nowhere.
Re: Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
I like patching to bore diameter because almost all of the bullet is aligned with the bore--kinda like breech seating in Schutzen. My feeling is that this promotes better accuracy.
OPS
OPS
Barry C Jolly
"I envy no man that knows more than myself and pity them that know less:" Sir T. Brown
"Everyone must sacrifice at the altar of stupidity from time to time" A. Einstein
"I envy no man that knows more than myself and pity them that know less:" Sir T. Brown
"Everyone must sacrifice at the altar of stupidity from time to time" A. Einstein
-
- Posts: 1609
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:20 pm
Re: Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
It is a misconception that patching to groove requires freebore. However, it might well be the only way to get decent pp performance from freebore rifles.
Mine does well without, but has a pretty tight, well-aligned chamber, I even have to neckturn my brass for use with the groove-dia. bullet.
Mine does well without, but has a pretty tight, well-aligned chamber, I even have to neckturn my brass for use with the groove-dia. bullet.
-
- Posts: 2789
- Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:36 pm
Re: Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
Gert, in general I think you are right, it is not required per se, but if one has excessive freebore - and the early Shilohs were excessively excessive and then some, then groove diameter (or groove + since the freebore was well over groove diameter) is the way to go.
That said, I am going to contradict what I just said somewhat and say that you have to have something in the way of throating that lets you load the cartridge. If the top of your paper patch is groove or groove+ (as is the norm with grease grooves), then how do you reasonably get the bullet in the rifle without having all of the paper in the brass and even then may have difficulty getting the bullet into the barrel w/o damaging the patch severely.
That said, I am going to contradict what I just said somewhat and say that you have to have something in the way of throating that lets you load the cartridge. If the top of your paper patch is groove or groove+ (as is the norm with grease grooves), then how do you reasonably get the bullet in the rifle without having all of the paper in the brass and even then may have difficulty getting the bullet into the barrel w/o damaging the patch severely.
-
- Posts: 449
- Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:00 pm
- Location: Florida
Re: Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
Gentlemen,
I have a Whitney Phoenix rifle with an untouched chamber that is designed to shoot groove dia. PP. it's chambered in 38/50 Ballard everlasting, and it has .380 freebore. The rifle was made in the 1880's. Although not common, I have seen other original rifles with freebore. The ones I have come across, the freebore matches the caliber. Example a.45 cal. Would have .450 freebore. 50cal. Would have .500 freebore etc.
Tom Klinger
I have a Whitney Phoenix rifle with an untouched chamber that is designed to shoot groove dia. PP. it's chambered in 38/50 Ballard everlasting, and it has .380 freebore. The rifle was made in the 1880's. Although not common, I have seen other original rifles with freebore. The ones I have come across, the freebore matches the caliber. Example a.45 cal. Would have .450 freebore. 50cal. Would have .500 freebore etc.
Tom Klinger
-
- Posts: 2875
- Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:21 pm
- Location: Montana
Re: Paper patching to bore or groove diameter?
When I started paper patching, I bought a money bullet mould from DT with a dia of .454. Using Staedtler paper of .0017, I got a finished dia of approximately .460. this wound up being perfect for the Browning 45-90 with its freebore. The OAL of the load was approximately 1/8 inch longer than necessary since I had just removed the GG bullet from a load and put the PP bullet in the case.( I used a camming tool to finish chambering it) When I removed the load, (I had to knock the bullet out) it showed the rifling nicely imprinted on the paper. Since this load shot very nicely that way I never changed my OAL, and use the same on all my other loads. I have several rifles with standard chamber with the 45deg transition and they all shoot equally well this way. The Paper in those only stick out of the case equal to the amount I engrave the rifling. (somewhere between 1/8" and 1/4" inch plus freebore if any).BFD wrote: That said, I am going to contradict what I just said somewhat and say that you have to have something in the way of throating that lets you load the cartridge. If the top of your paper patch is groove or groove+ (as is the norm with grease grooves), then how do you reasonably get the bullet in the rifle without having all of the paper in the brass and even then may have difficulty getting the bullet into the barrel w/o damaging the patch severely.
Only drawback I can see, is with the shorter cases like the 45-70 and 40-65, the BP is limited. Since I'm not shooting NRA matches, I use BH 209 in those and BP in the 40-82, 42 Wesson and 45-90 etc.