BPCR newbie

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Sasquash
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:53 am

BPCR newbie

Post by Sasquash »

Hi all,
I am a newbie both in the forum and in the BPCR world.

As I am a ML shooter I have some experience with BP....but the cartridge world for me is dark and full of terrors :mrgreen: .

First of all, I am in Spain, so here Shiloh rifles are just "the myth", and here, basicaly, we only have access to Pedi´s, Chiappa´s and IAB´s. My rifle is a mix: IAB action + Pedersoli barrel, one of the tight ones (.460 dia freebore, .450 lands, .455 grooves).

I started shooting at 50m (here, I have access to 100m only...you know, this is Yurop, so easily available LR is another myth for plain mortals) to start understanding the rifle and BP 45/70.
40grs of Swiss 3F + 0.07 cardboard + 0.5felt wad + 0.07 cardboard + LEE 450g pure lead sized to .457. Perfect load, one big hole at 50m.
Wiped between shots with water (1 damp patch made of kitchen cloth).
LUBE: 50% paraffin, 25% vaseline, 25% horse tallow (the one used for shoes/leather). This lube is perfec for ML, so I use it for BPCR.


My problems come now.....and I have some, all mixed together.

-Moved to 100m and got a 457125 mould (bullets drops at .458 with a .4475 nose). Started proving alloys (pure and 20:1) loads (swiss 2f, 3f between 45-55gr) and targets all of them seem to be more or less the same: 2.5 MOA. Same wiping system, same lube.

-Trying to improve accuracy, started measuring barrel dimensions, throat dia, jumps, etc and started loading rounds with longer OALs, cleaned more between shots...and problems appeared: absolute inconsistency, extreme flyers, several POIs with the same load...even the "good" loads that gave 2.5MOA now shoot shotgun patterns....So I though I had a leading problem, but bore was checked and no leading was found.

In my last shooting session, last 6 rounds (from a supposedly disastrous load) in a desperate attempt to try another variable, I shot them dirty, without blow tube (5th and 6th needed to be licked to chamber :roll:). Result: 2 MOA

After a lot of reading, lots of posts in this forum I think my problems started with the wiping system, because I changed from water to crystal cleaner as wiping liquid in an attempt to shoot through a "perfectly clean bore shoot after shoot" as I do with my ML rifles.
That wiping liquid works fine for PRB in my ML rifles, but I did not realized that PRB patches are lubed, so when loading, bore is lubed too.......but doing this to my Sharps, just ended sending large lead warheads through a perfectly clean dry hole.:!:

So,according to what I have discovered (bore needs some level of lubrication), I will start using as wiping liquid 5:1 cutting oil/water.

BUT I have a couple of questions:
-Which bullet diameter and alloy should I shoot through my big freebore+ tight bore????
457?
458?
20:1 or 16:1?

-Should I pass a dry patch after the wet ones or just leaving the barrel moistured/damp?

Thank you for your comments.
77 sharps
Posts: 330
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Location: N. CA

Re: BPCR newbie

Post by 77 sharps »

You have a .460" dia. free bore but you don't say how long it is. You need to find out how far out of the case you need to seat the bullet so it just touches the rifling. This may be two lube grooves. Using a drop tube, slowly trickle 2f powder into the case until it is .06 below where the bullet base will be. Weigh this so you know where to set your scale for later. Seat one .07" wad and use something to seat it other than the bullet. I would use the .458" bullet 20/1. Your powder charge should be 60 or more grains of powder. 40 grains is not enough for a .45-70.

Using a fire formed case, make your self a proper blow tube so you don't get moisture in the chamber and try blow tubing before returning to wiping. Take a deep breath and slowly exhale it into the bore through the blow tube. Do this three times or more so you get the fouling moist and slippery like grease. After firing a string, I like to blow through the barrel and push a patch through on a jag to check if the fouling is soft enough the length of the barrel. You should be able to get 2" or smaller groups at 100M. If you don't have a blow tube just use any plastic tube and dry the chamber before loading.

This should get you started but return for more help if required.
beltfed
Posts: 1962
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:07 am
Location: Central Wi

Re: BPCR newbie

Post by beltfed »

I suggest for lube use 50% beeswax, 40% Crisco veg shortening, 10% olive oil or canola oil.
The petrol based items of paraffin and Vaseline are not good with BP
beltfed/arnie
beltfed
Posts: 1962
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:07 am
Location: Central Wi

Re: BPCR newbie

Post by beltfed »

I suggest wiping: one or two water wet(just not quite dripping) patches
and leave bore wet. NO dry wipe with greasers
beltfed/arnie
Kurt
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: BPCR newbie

Post by Kurt »

Oh Arnie I have to differ with you with Vaseline.
My muzzle loader patch lube has been for a long time straight Vaseline. It's the best lube I have ever used in the front stuffers. We have a local ML match twice a year with 25 shots and Vaseline lets me load 25 plus balls with out ever having to wipe the bore and using something to drive a ball down the bore like I see some do after 5-6 shots fired :)
Some of my best lubes I have made I used Ozokerite wax and with a heavy mix of Vaseline and a couple other things.
Even Pope used it. It was from his writings that started me using it.

Kurt
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

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Coltsmoke
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Location: GA.

Re: BPCR newbie

Post by Coltsmoke »

Sasquash, I don't want to pop your bubble, but if your measurements are accurate on your barrel, I don't think you will achieve what you want to do. If you are shooting a .458 bullet and it bumps up to .460 in the freebore and then has to squeeze back down to .455 you are going to have problems. I would be looking for another barrel, one that was .458 groove and .450 bore. How did you measure the bore and grooves, I've never heard of a barrel with those measurements.

Get some .030 or .060 poly wads, use only one wad per round, mix up some wiping liquid 10% oil and 90% water.
Normal isn't coming back, but Jesus is.
gunlaker
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Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:16 pm

Re: BPCR newbie

Post by gunlaker »

Those do seem like crazy dimensions, although I owned a Pedersoli a long time ago and it had 0.456" grooves.

I had a highwall once with crazy dimensions. 0.463" diameter freebore, 0.458" grooves. The fireformed cases would hold a 0.460" bullet so Dan Theodore designed a bullet for me that put as much of the bullet as possible into the bore ( reduced front grooves ) but the back of the bullet was as big as the case would hold. That made the rifle shoot reasonably well. The only other thing that was somewhat promising was very hard ( smokeless style ) bullets that were max diameter but too hard for BP to bump up.

Chris.
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desert deuce
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Re: BPCR newbie

Post by desert deuce »

That rifle with the Lyman 457125 bullet should shoot much better than you are experiencing at 100 M.

Might try figuring out what cartridge overall length you need to seat that bullet into the rifling 50 thousandths worth of engraving on the bullet. That should center the projectile in the bore.

Then figure out volume wise how much 64 grains of Swiss 2F occupies in the case then add enough wads to give .150" compression and the cartridge overall length outlined above.

Finger seat the as cast bullet in the fired unsized case. 1-25 or even 1-30 alloy is hard enough. Most any good primer should work just fine.

Make sure you deburr the inside mouth of the case.

If the rifle doesn't shoot this load look for something besides the barrel and ammunition as the source of the problem.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
Sasquash
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:53 am

Re: BPCR newbie

Post by Sasquash »

77 sharps wrote:You have a .460" dia. free bore but you don't say how long it is. You need to find out how far out of the case you need to seat the bullet so it just touches the rifling. This may be two lube grooves. Using a drop tube, slowly trickle 2f powder into the case until it is .06 below where the bullet base will be. Weigh this so you know where to set your scale for later. Seat one .07" wad and use something to seat it other than the bullet. I would use the .458" bullet 20/1. Your powder charge should be 60 or more grains of powder. 40 grains is not enough for a .45-70.

Using a fire formed case, make your self a proper blow tube so you don't get moisture in the chamber and try blow tubing before returning to wiping. Take a deep breath and slowly exhale it into the bore through the blow tube. Do this three times or more so you get the fouling moist and slippery like grease. After firing a string, I like to blow through the barrel and push a patch through on a jag to check if the fouling is soft enough the length of the barrel. You should be able to get 2" or smaller groups at 100M. If you don't have a blow tube just use any plastic tube and dry the chamber before loading.

This should get you started but return for more help if required.
Well, to be honest, I still don´t know how long is my freebore. By now, I know that it is longer than .220.
beltfed wrote:I suggest wiping: one or two water wet(just not quite dripping) patches
and leave bore wet. NO dry wipe with greasers
beltfed/arnie
Short answer full of info.
Thank you indeed.
Kurt wrote:Oh Arnie I have to differ with you with Vaseline.
My muzzle loader patch lube has been for a long time straight Vaseline. It's the best lube I have ever used in the front stuffers. We have a local ML match twice a year with 25 shots and Vaseline lets me load 25 plus balls with out ever having to wipe the bore and using something to drive a ball down the bore like I see some do after 5-6 shots fired :)
Some of my best lubes I have made I used Ozokerite wax and with a heavy mix of Vaseline and a couple other things.
Even Pope used it. It was from his writings that started me using it.

Kurt
Well, measured bore dia as I use to do: unsized lead bullet introduced by the mouth just the lenght of the bullet.
Through the breech forced a mechanically oversized one, introduced until finding strong oposition, so that way I got freebore diameter + bore diameter.
But I think I´m going to order some cerrosafe to get a true chamber cast.
gunlaker wrote:Those do seem like crazy dimensions, although I owned a Pedersoli a long time ago and it had 0.456" grooves.

I had a highwall once with crazy dimensions. 0.463" diameter freebore, 0.458" grooves. The fireformed cases would hold a 0.460" bullet so Dan Theodore designed a bullet for me that put as much of the bullet as possible into the bore ( reduced front grooves ) but the back of the bullet was as big as the case would hold. That made the rifle shoot reasonably well. The only other thing that was somewhat promising was very hard ( smokeless style ) bullets that were max diameter but too hard for BP to bump up.

Chris.
The point of really hard bullet is another thing I had on mind, but I have no antimonium on hand (jus tin), but have ordered some hard Lyman Postells 15bhn to try that way. When they arrive, I´ll try them resized to 455 and 457....
desert deuce wrote:That rifle with the Lyman 457125 bullet should shoot much better than you are experiencing at 100 M.

Might try figuring out what cartridge overall length you need to seat that bullet into the rifling 50 thousandths worth of engraving on the bullet. That should center the projectile in the bore.

Then figure out volume wise how much 64 grains of Swiss 2F occupies in the case then add enough wads to give .150" compression and the cartridge overall length outlined above.

Finger seat the as cast bullet in the fired unsized case. 1-25 or even 1-30 alloy is hard enough. Most any good primer should work just fine.

Make sure you deburr the inside mouth of the case.

If the rifle doesn't shoot this load look for something besides the barrel and ammunition as the source of the problem.
This weekend I´ll load that recipe, for sure....in .457 and .458, to compare.

Thank you all for the kind welcome.

I´ll keep you informed.
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DAVE ROELLE
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Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:30 am
Location: CONROE TEXAS

Re: BPCR newbie

Post by DAVE ROELLE »

Search. Dick trenk bullet
There is info that could help

Dave
your never lost, if ya don't care where ya are
Sasquash
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:53 am

Re: BPCR newbie

Post by Sasquash »

Hi all,

Well, after some time I had the chance to shoot the riflea bit.

First of all I measured again my bore (several times), more carefully and ended being .4515-.4555. Very shallow...maybe hardcasts would work well. I´ll get some antimonium and try out.

Wiping liquid: vegetal cutting oil 10% + water.
2 wet patches of kitchen cloth.
This liquid is fantastic, 0% leading.

I prepared several loads, measured by weight within 0.1gr, and bullets within +/-0.5gr:

457125 20:1
-50gr swiss2F, OAL 2.85 .457 0.07 (+/-) compression. 100meters
Image

-50gr swiss2F OAL 2.85 .458 0.07 (+/-) compression. 100meters
Image
As you can see the difference between using .457 and .458 is noticeable, so I wouldn´t shoot the rest of the loads I prepared using .457 bullets.

-60gr swiss 2F 2 grease grooves exposed 0.150 compression .458. 100meters
Image
Image
This group is 5cm wide which would be just a bit over 1.75MOA

-64gr swiss 2F 2 grease grooves exposed 0.150 compression .458
With this load I just shot 2 shoots, which were awfull.

I think I got how to deal with BPCR....now must work to get the 1 MOA, or at least try hard :lol:
Thank you all for your help.
martinibelgian
Posts: 1610
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:20 pm

Re: BPCR newbie

Post by martinibelgian »

Where exactly in Spain are you?
Sasquash
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:53 am

Re: BPCR newbie

Post by Sasquash »

In Badajoz, region of Extremadura.
martinibelgian
Posts: 1610
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:20 pm

Re: BPCR newbie

Post by martinibelgian »

Pity, just arrived in Catalonia.... If you have Swiss no.3 or 4, try that, and try more. No. 2 is pistol powder, not the best with heavy bullets.
Also, don't size your bullet, try as cast. See that you have a solid overpowder wad, at least .460+. And seat your bullet as far out as possible, touching the rifling.
Sasquash
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:53 am

Re: BPCR newbie

Post by Sasquash »

martinibelgian wrote:Pity, just arrived in Catalonia.... If you have Swiss no.3 or 4, try that, and try more. No. 2 is pistol powder, not the best with heavy bullets.
Also, don't size your bullet, try as cast. See that you have a solid overpowder wad, at least .460+. And seat your bullet as far out as possible, touching the rifling.
Hi,

CataLOLnia is a funny place nowadays :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Sorry but when I say Swiss 2F I mean Swiss no.3.

Here, it is not easy to get Swiss no.4 (1F) ...you know, not many people use it here (BPCR and musket shooters are a minority here), so, it is not imported in significant quantities.
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