50 90 Bullet question

[mshwebb]

I have a Shiloh Sharps #3 Sporter on order and should have in a few months. I am getting the reloading supplies ready. I cast my own bullets and use only Swiss or Old Ensford powder. I shoot at 300 to 500 yards and am looking for the most accurate bullet and twist at that distance. I am not concerned with recoil. I am looking at the NOE 513-580-SP-BI5 bullet mold and getting the rifle in the faster 1/22" twist. Would this be a good accurate combination at 500 yards or is there a better bullet weight or different twist that would be more accurate? I would be looking at the heavy octagon barrel in a 30" or 32". Any opinions on barrel length would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike

[rdnck]

I have a 50-90 with a 1-26 twist. It will not shoot a bullet that weighs less than 650 grains with anything resembling accuracy. I seriously doubt that your rifle with a faster 1-22 twist will shoot that lighter bullet.

I prefer a 30 inch barrel. A Number 1 heavy barrel in either 30 or 32 inch length will not give you enough weight to help with recoil with a bullet heavy enough to be decently accurate. You would be a lot better off with a 1-36 twist and a 425 grain bullet. Or a 45-70. Shoot straight, rdnck.

[rdnck]

I have a 50-90 with a 1-26 twist. It will not shoot a bullet that weighs less than 650 grains with anything resembling accuracy. I seriously doubt that your rifle with a faster 1-22 twist will shoot that lighter bullet.

I prefer a 30 inch barrel. A Number 1 heavy barrel in either 30 or 32 inch length will not give you enough weight to help with recoil with a bullet heavy enough to be decently accurate. You would be a lot better off with a 1-36 twist and a 425 grain bullet. Or a 45-70. Shoot straight, rdnck.

[firefighter1990]

I have a Hartford in such a beast that wears a heavy 30" barrel with the 1:22 twist. It's my go-to gun for hunting but I have used it in silhouette matches with my two personal best scores being attributed to that gun. The 50-2.5" is a scary accurate chambering. Recoil is stout when compared to the normal 45-70 and 40-65 that dominate the shooting line but it's basically identical to a 12 ga turkey or goose load (with added torque that is.) I will say that I HATE shooting it from a bench. Prone is much more comfortable (for me).

My "target load" uses 100 gr of OE 1-1/2F. .060" fiber wad. About .200" compression with a slip fit 695 gr creedmoor bullet from a baco mold all in fire formed and unsized starline brass. F210 primers. That bullet's product number is JIM511695C1 if you want to do a search on baco web page. It's OAL is 1.45" which is perfect for the 1:22" twist all the way out to 1000 if you care to push it that far. It's an expensive venture to buy a mold in hopes that it's exactly what you want; so I can cast a few and send some your way to test drive if you want.

[firefighter1990]

Also, Bruce at Montana bullet works has a few heavy bullets to offer. There's a nei 700 gr round nose and another nei 685 that has the first two grooves reduced. Both have shot well for me when I tried them. So long as I keep bullet length in and around 1.475" then the big fifty is always happy. Even tried paper patching but stepping up to 110-115 gr of powder was taxing on both my powder supply as well my shoulder.

[SchuetzenDave]

Bullet Weight Length 1:36 1:34 1:32 1:30 1:28 1:26 1:24 1:22 1:20
Grains Inches
BACO JIM512450 480 0.970 1.80 2.01 2.27 2.59 2.97 3.44 4.04 4.81 5.82
BACO JIM511500 FN 500 1.010 1.69 1.89 2.13 2.43 2.79 3.23 3.79 4.51 5.46
BACO JIM512515 540 1.100 1.46 1.63 1.84 2.10 2.41 2.79 3.28 3.90 4.72
BACO JIM511600 FN 600 1.220 1.22 1.37 1.55 1.76 2.02 2.34 2.75 3.27 3.96
BACO JIM511650 FN 650 1.300 1.11 1.25 1.41 1.61 1.84 2.14 2.51 2.99 3.61
BACO JIM511670M1 Money 670 1.515 0.75 0.84 0.95 1.08 1.24 1.44 1.69 2.02 2.44
BACO JIM511695C1 Creedmore 695 1.450 0.88 0.99 1.12 1.27 1.46 1.69 1.98 2.36 2.86


A 1:22 twist would require the 670 or 695 grain bullet.

A 580 grain bullet in the 1:22 twist would have excessive spin and it would affect accuracy.

The traditional 1:36 twist was for the 450 grain bullet.

I have ordered a 1:34 twist barrel to shoot 450 to 540 grain bullets in my .50-70.

[SchuetzenDave]

The numbers above are the gyroscopic spin factor (Sg) for the bullets using 1,200 fps as the velocity and normal weather conditions.

A Sg of 1.4 or less does not have enough spin and will tumble.
A Sg greater than 2.0 is overspinning the bullet. (bullet too short or rifle twist too tight).
Long distance shooters (1000 yards+) try to overspin their bullets i.e. Sg of 2.0 to 3.0 to compensate for drag over long distances.

The faster you over spin the bullet the greater the chances you will affect accuracy.

[Kurt]

I have put a lot of time behind a 1/22 twist Shiloh and it performs the best using a bullet form a Paul Jones 718 gain 1.5" long Creedmoor bullet. Steve Brooks makes a copy of the PJ Creedmoor for the .50 and I have two of his of the same design but one I had Steve make a hollow point to reduce the weight to 680 grains but keeping the outside dimensions the same. I also have PP swage dies for it and forget anything below 1.4" long if you want accuracy past 200 yards.
That little marble you mentioned will shoot well in the 32 twists.

Kurt

[mshwebb]

Thanks for the information. I guess I need to decide if I want a heavier bullet (700 grain range) in the 1-22" twist or order the 1-32" twist and use that 580 grain NOE bullet. Does anyone have an idea of the accuracy I can expect at 500 yards with these two options? I know accuracy has a great deal to do with the shooter behind the rifle, I just which option has more potential in the hands of a great shooter. I am not claiming to be an expert. I only shoot 1 hole groups when I change the target between every shot.

[SchuetzenDave]

When you have the correct length bullet for the twist of your rifle you should get the same accuracy with either option but:

Accuracy is better with a heavier bullet with increased kinetic energy and a better ballistic coefficient - less likely to be influenced by wind.

However the heavier bullet results in greater recoil and poorer accuracy.

So the question is how heavy a bullet can you use and at what point does the recoil become uncontrollable.


I believe the 580 grain bullet is quite suitable for 500 yard shooting.

[Kurt]

Dave your spot on but I have to disagree with the 580 grain bullet.
I have put past 20K bullets through my 1/22 ROT Shiloh and it looks like it bounced around on a spring seat buckboard and It has always been my go to rifle at gong shoots and long range especially when the winds kick up.
I have swage dies for this rifle and I can swage short and almost 2" long bullets and I have tried working up loads with a lighter bullet and I have never got a load I was satisfied with until the length was above 1.425" or around 650 grains. I even snagged cup based bullets to get more length with a lighter bullet, 600 grains would not hold the 13" 9 ring on a SR-C at 200 yards.
Yes the recoil is stiff with 118 gr of 2F pushing a 718 gr 1.5" long bullet but when you can keep 10 in the 3" X ring on that SR-C @ 200 yards things are working.
Yes your correct if you can't control the torque and recoil you will not get the most from that rifle even it it's capable of a 1/2 MOA @ 1K you just can't do it.

Kurt

[Kurt]

I might add; with that #3 sporter and a left hand twist you better put some rosin in your pocket and put some on your hands to keep your eye tooth tight unless your left handed

[Longrange]

Mike, Try bullet length for known twist. ie .510"x3=1.53"x1.53"=2.3409". 22twistx.ot ie 22x.07=1.54". devide first answer by second ie 2.3409"devide by 1.54" =1.520" bullet? Vic.

[Longrange]

Also Mike if your 50 barrel is .510 groove run bullets at .512. if run at .510 will take about 3-400yds to settle down. Vic

[SchuetzenDave]

Kurt:

If he goes to the 580 grain bullet he would select a 1:32 twist barrel.
Your results with the tighter twist would not apply in that case.

With the correct twist for the 580 grain bullet he would have significantly less torque and have good accuracy.

Yes you need a longer bullet for a 1:22 twist but he also is selecting what barrel he would use as well.

You can get excellent accuracy with the lighter bullet if the barrel is properly matched to the length of bullet you are shooting.
For the 580 grain bullet it would be 1:32 twist.

Also remember he wants to shoot at 500 yards and does not need the extra weight to carry it to 1000 yards.

I also prefer to shoot bullets .001 to .002 wider than the groove-to-groove diameter.
They seal better and reduce chances of gas cutting around the side.


Dave