daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

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firefighter1990
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daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by firefighter1990 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:16 pm

Over the past year or so, I have made a big push to shoot paper patched bullets competitively in silhouette matches. So much of a push that patched bullets have been almost an exclusive diet to all my rifles. Shooting in the same class as I and routinely besting me with every outing is my wife who still shoots the greasers with a blow-tube. It has been (and still is) a learning curve for me. Probably always will be learning something new with every outing. It has been frustrating at times, embarrassing at times, and successful on more recent experiments. At the start of this paper patching endeavor; I started with cartridges that were long discussed about as being patched for to better self-educate as to what was working, what wasn’t, and why the outcomes yielded such. Using this forum and talking with much more experience shooters; I kept at it. Keeping my pride tucked when milestones were hit and being stubborn enough to keep going when failures were endured until my more favorable attempts could be duplicated. For the most part, paper patching is a rather straight forward and surprisingly easy thing to do successfully; that is so long as you listen to those who have mastered it. Get a bullet that when properly wrapped, fit’s the bore like a glove. Fouling control and wiping routine must be consistent every time. Then its all comes down to the skills as a rifleman.
In my more recent “B series” Shiloh’s the chambers are very exact with almost zero throat to them allowing a shallow seated straight sided bullet to shoot accurately down range. I have two older Shiloh’s from the 80’s that bare the stamps of when Shiloh and C Sharps were one in the same. One a 40 1-11/16” bottleneck. The other a 40 2-5/8” bottleneck. I never fully understood the problem of the long throat that I’ve continually read about. I’ve always shot greasers through these rifles and adjusted the OAL so that the first driving band was up against the lands. Pretty basic and straight forward process to get favorable results. I found it much more puzzling when I shifted my efforts of patching the newer 45 calibers to these bottlenecks. No matter what style of bullet I want to shot, I always do a chamber cast to measure and see in a 3D representation of exactly what I’m dealing with. So from the start, I knew these two rifles had about .200” of free-bore. Yet I still tried what had previously worked for me in the 45 2-1/10” and 45 2-6/10”. no matter what I tried with wad materials, compression, alloy temper, and fouling control; I just could not get competitive accuracy. I started thinking that perhaps the internet myth about bottlenecks was true- “they don’t shoot well, they foul out, and are mild mannered at best.” Then I thought about how well and how easy it was to get my grease grooved bullets to shoot. I was genuinely puzzled at what I was or wasn’t doing right. Yes attention to fouling control has always been more important with these two cartridges but from the start, these two guns would shoot fairly well with greasers. Every time I went down range to analyze paper, wads, bullet holes and the bullets themselves (if I could recover them); I kept my fingers crossed to see if things would ever start to show promise. 
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After a few days of chewing over very complicated experiments and elaborate ways to change things in my loads, it occurred to me that I failed to account for the most basic of all my practices. That was to make the bullets fit the rifle. My brass fit, I measured the bore and found a bullet/ paper combination to fit, my loaded cartridges chambered smooth every time, BUT I never took the .200” free-bore into consideration. I felt like a big rookie! Immediately it all made sense. Everything from how the bullet bases looked after firing, the blow-by on the paper shreds, uncalled flyers; it was all because my bullets were being blow out and then reduced down again upon every firing. So it was back to basics. I got on the forum and did my homework with something I remember distantthunder and beltfedarnie discussing and that was dual diameter bullet profiles. I knew this fairly new concept couldn’t be any worse that what I had already tried so I decide to jump in. I redid my chamber casts of both rifles and to the best of my ability; I measured everything. The length of the throat, the diameter, even tried to get a good read of the transition angle from throat to land. From there I began to draw up a bullet design that when #9 paper was applied, would fit the chamber, throat, and twist rate like a glove.
I first acquired a few tapered bullets from a fellow member of the forum to test the theory behind my bullet. These test bullets had a .393” nose section that tapered up to a .395” base. That .395” cylinderncontinued to the base for about .250”. Their performance was much better than any of my attempts with a straight sided profile yet the rifles still struggled to be competitive. After testing that design, I sent my design to Tom at Accurate Molds LLC to be cut. I made the OAL 1.21” to fit the 1-18” twist of both these rifles. Using #9 onion skin paper, I made the nose diameter .393” for my .400” bore. The base diameter is .403” to fit my .410” throat and is .28” long. My throat is .200” long so this gave me .080” of seating depth into the case. When the mold arrived in the mail, I tore into it like a kid on Christmas morning and started casting that evening. Using my 25:1 alloy the bullets come out at 369.7 grains.
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firefighter1990
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Re: daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by firefighter1990 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:19 pm

For this first initial test I just loaded up for one rifle to focus on just one thing at a time, including one gun at a time. Since the bullet weighs 370 grains, I thought it would be fitting for the test rifle to be the 40 2-5/8” bottleneck and try and duplicate the original load with the added twist of this new dual diameter bullet. I wrapped my bullets and measured their headspacing then re-measured it three more times to assert my cartridge OAL at 3.770”. my go-to wad stack has always been two wads; first is .060” fiber followed by a .060” ldpe. This combination was perfect for a zero compression load when a 90 grain charge was thrown and drop-tubed. I always feel a little more comfort and consistency with a load that has a small amount of compression. So I loaded a few more rounds using another ldpe wad for a total of 3 wads altogether, and lastly a set using 4 wads of an alternating pattern of fiber, ldpe, fiber, ldpe (in that order). I knew I was testing two differ things at once with my wad stacking and that is; first- testing varying compression levels on the powder column while maintaining the same powder charge of 90 grains. Second- I wanted to test if the long free-bore was allowing blow-by in the short time that the initial two wads were in transition between the case mouth and the rifling. That following weekend was to be the test of whether I knew what I was doing by designing my own bullet and venturing down a very undocumented road of both dual diameter bullets as well as accurately shooting a 40-90-370 bottleneck; or if after all this time and money spent that I was just wasting time and lead on experimenting.
For this test, I also invested in a set of BACO’s bore wipes to make sure I was being as consistent as I possibly could with each shot. I have made my own bore pigs for my 45 caliber shooting and its has made all the difference in my silhouette match shooting but I always wanted to try these out and save on patches since I can wash and re-use the felt wads. My favorite wiping solution has been warm water with a little detergent in it to break the water’s surface tension and give it better penetrating characteristic on hydrophobic compounds like carbon. I keep the wipes/ pigs in a container submerged in the soapy water, then I push them through the bore with a dry patched jag. Almost all the way to clear the bore, then I pull the jag back to get the opposite side of the rifling, then push everything out and clear of the muzzle. That has always given me very consist bore conditions from shot to shot.
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 The day warmed up to be a calm 48 degree day with bright blue skies and great visibility on my 200 yard target through the small tube of my ¾” scope. I started with the zero compression two wad load and up until this point, the best 40 2-5/8” bottleneck 5 round group I was able to obtain was 6 inches, maybe 4 inches with greasers and that was at 100 yards. Now im taking advantage of the conditions and pushing my luck at 200 yard. The two wad load prints the group seen here. Immediately im overwhelmed excitement!
40.5.jpg


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firefighter1990
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Re: daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by firefighter1990 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:19 pm

I take a good 10 minutes to search for paper and wads while I struggle to swallow my pride and humble myself for the next two loads still to be shot. I find my spent components down range and analyze them thoroughly. My wads measure .412” in their unfired form and my throat diameter is .410”. both them and the paper show zero signs of blow-by as they did with the straight sided bullet. Im sure the larger base on these bullets fill the otherwise empty space in the throat to aid in that better seal. Finally! Things are shaping up. Up next is the three wad stack with about .060” compression. Lastly is the four wad stack with about .120” compression. I’m floored with my results! Who would of thought that a modern twist on an old concept would work so well? Who would of thought that the old trouble-some 40-90 bottleneck could shoot like that? Is something really working well here? Or is this just an experimental gun with experimental ammunition?
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powderburnt
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Re: daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by powderburnt » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:30 pm

Congratulations !!!!! I found the same thing with the DDPPB. Be careful though, if you do this for your wife's" rifle, she may continue to out shoot you,
hard to beat a good shot.

HG

powderburnt
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Re: daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by powderburnt » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:28 pm

I use the Brent Danielson bore pig modification pushed through with an arsenal patch on a brass jag. One pass and done,which is good in competition. In practice, I take my time and do one wet patch and one dry unless it's hot and dry then I do two wet ad one dry.
BTW: Thanks to Arnie for the bullet drawing.

HG
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firefighter1990
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Re: daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by firefighter1990 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:45 pm

Yup, my 45 cal pig are very similar to that.

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Distant Thunder
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Re: daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by Distant Thunder » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:32 am

Well done, firefighter1990!

The 2-diameter paper patch bullet certainly has it place in our modern rifles and when done correctly is very, very effective. My hat is off to you for sticking with it through the good and bad and learning from it all. You are seeing the results of following those that give their advise freely on this forum and others. That kind of advise really has helped me and still does. Paper patch bullets are making a comeback in competitive shooting and that will continue and you are contributing to that effort by posting your experiences here. Again, well done!
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder

A new age of tyranny dawns in the United States! If anyone is brave enough to say so they're destroyed by the BIG Tech branch of the Federal Government for spreading lies! "Reeducation" camps to follow!

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Don McDowell
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Re: daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by Don McDowell » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:14 am

If you haven't tried it yet, you may want to get some Olde Eysnsford 1f. 94 gr in the BACO cases for the 40-90 seems to work the best with about any patched bullet you care to put thru it. 90 gr, works well in cases on their first firing, after that it takes 94 to keep the fouling down.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?

firefighter1990
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Re: daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by firefighter1990 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:16 pm

The 1F powder is my next experiment. I shoot 1-1/2 in everything and there for its all I have on hand at the moment but I know it's a rule of thumb to use 1F in larger case like the 45-110, 40-90, 44-90 etc. Because I wipe after each shot then excessive fouling has never been a problem. So long as my shots are consistent and vertical stringing is kept at bay then I'm happy.

The testing for this write-up was done with freshly formed cases and I have noticed that the now fire-formed cases can easily hold 97 grains with zero compression. I'm curious what the muzzle velocity is on such a load of 1-1/2F. I'll take my chronograph out one of these days and try it. I'm guessing it's around 1475fps. That ought to make a nifty antelope load!

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kenny s
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Re: daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by kenny s » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:21 am

IMG_3103 (2).JPG
Hey Firefighter. I tried your TWO wad theory.....I'm hooked. the target is 7 shots and measures Under 1 1/8 inch at 100 yds.

load is 67 OE
360 custom with .010 BA 9 pound wet wrapped. patched up to ogave. (a little higher than usual for me)
one .060 veggie wad
one .060 poly wad
1/8 compress was not changed, but the wads increased the compression .060.

one wet patch and one dry patch.

good advice buddy....Ken
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firefighter1990
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Re: daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by firefighter1990 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:28 pm

That's good news! That's also with the test bullets I sent you?

I have no scientific explanation as to why that wad stack works so well but it just does.

If your 40 2-1/2" has a 16:1 twist rate and you want a heavier bullet than the 370's I sent you; look at accurate mold's catalog and there's a longer version of the same design that I drew up for the 16". Should be about 400 grains or so. I haven't shot any of those ones yet. I doubt my 18" twist will like them.

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kenny s
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Re: daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by kenny s » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:37 am

this group was from my mold. 360 custom. like the one you ordered. Your bullets were just a little tight to load.
three out of 5 stuck and would not chamber in my rifle.
the other three hit in 3 inches, so they seem to work, but my mold is easier to load and this is the target.

I already have a 415 grain BA custom .393 and it shoots very accurately. I'm looking at a one inch 4 shot group I kept. Most in the under 2 inches.

I wonder if the two wad increased compression and that's why it works. but...I'm loading two from now one.
After Christmas, I'll test a bunch and see.

good advice and thanks...Ken

beltfed
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Re: daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by beltfed » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:22 am

Kenny ,
That is a good group with the 40-70. nice and quite round.
But something does not look right at 1 1/8 or 1 3/8"
in comparison to the 40 cal bullet holes
Is that group 2 1/4" ?
beltfed/arnie

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kenny s
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Re: daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by kenny s » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:00 am

just measured it again. 1 1/2 by 1 1/2 center to center . it really is slightly smaller.
How about 5 out of 7 in
7/8 of an inch!

:)

beltfed
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Re: daul diameter ppb's & the 40 2-5/8" bottleneck

Post by beltfed » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:32 am

Kenny,
Again, Good Shooting.
beltfed/arnie

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