4065 help

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lennies
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Re: 4065 help

Post by lennies » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:50 am

thanks everyone for the helpful suggestions.
Mike Johnson - I am using a compression die. I can get a lot more powder in the case, but since I'm only fire forming, I thought 50gr would be sufficient. I can get 65 into it, but it seemed excessive for the need. With the patched bullet seated on top of the larger amount of powder, it takes a great deal of effort to seat the round as all that exposed bullet has to be pushed into the lands and grooves and the paper adds more friction than I had anticipated.
The neck measures 0.424. I can finger seat the bullets into most the case necks. There is a little inconsistancy.
Interesting though that the bullets when seated deeply, can still be twisted back out of the case after I run the loaded round through the resizer the second time.

Clarence - the formed cases will chamber completely without powder
I do not bell the necks at all. I don't even run the expander into most of them. When I do the neck measures 0.428 and it won't chamber.
Powder is compressed in the RCBS die using BACO compression adapter adjusted to lower the powder 0.2 from it's settled state. (not using drop tube for this powder amount 50.0gr)
bullets are BACO .395 as cast; lead, without tin. I think the number is jim395415m
I did a chamber cast and it revealed no conclusions to this point. My neck measures 0.424 - 0.425 The chamber cast measures .0428 at top of the neck
SchuetzenDave - I do have the Shiloh Sharps specially cut dies from RCBS (probably wouldn't be as far as I am without them). I will re-do my chamber cast and compare it to my current bullet . I was hoping not to have to do a custom mould, but we'll see.
no bell in my necks

Kurt, thank you - I have some thinner wad material and will give it a try. Seems like 3 .020's will still equal a 60 but without the stress on the neck.
I was staying away from the Starline 40-65 cases for fear of them being too short at the start. I just got back from loading 4 more cases and the .060 wad makes no change in the neck. It still measures 0.424 whether I use a .020 or a .060

Chris - I had intended to seat the bullets 0.020 but was having a tough time getting the bullet to go into the barrel. Perhaps my paper wrapping is not as good as I had hoped. (work in process)
My powder sits 0.55-0.60 down in the neck before compression which is why I chose the .060 wad. My first batch of loads did not use a lube cookie, but I'm adding it to the second batch to see if it helps in between shots.

kennys I'm down to 50gr as it is. You think I should go less?

I'm going over all the dimensions again. Maybe I'm missed something in the math dept.
If it doesn't hurt to run the cases through the sizing die then I will accept it as a reasonable solution.

y'all are very helpful and your advice is much appreciated by this beginning BP shooter.

gunlaker
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Re: 4065 help

Post by gunlaker » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:07 am

If you are using a bullet that is patched to bore diameter then you should be able to seat it at any depth in the case as it should just slide into the bore with a little resistance. Have you tried pushing a patched bullet through the bore with a cleaning rod?

Most times I run a patched bullet through a sizer die. This is just to ensure that the diameter is as perfectly consistent as I can make it. There is no significant sizing of lead going on here, just ironing out any variances in the wrapped paper thickness, particularly around the folds on the base. As an example I will take a .446" bullet that will patch to a hair above 0.450" and then run it through a 0.450" Lee push through sizer. This will make for more consistent seating of the bullet into the bore.

Chris.

bobw
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Re: 4065 help

Post by bobw » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:14 am

Lennies, what are you using for paper and what is the wrapped dia of that bullet? I don't ever bell the case anymore but I use a lyman VLD chamfer inside the case mouth . bobw
bobw

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kenny s
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Re: 4065 help

Post by kenny s » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:35 am

I agree about a PP bullet of bore diameter. .400, Mine is that and it seats with a very slight push into the bore.
I can load 70 grains of OD 1 1/2 and two wads and have no trouble seating the bullet.
again, mine is a 40 70 SS, but the Shiloh bore is the same .400/.408

I am getting groups of well under two inches at 100 yds. with tw 65 grains and two wads, one .060 vegie and one plastic.
I seat with a die and FIRST CHECK TO SEE IF THE SHELL WILL LOAD WITHOUT THE BULLET. THAT WAY YOU WILL SEE IF IT IS THE
CASE OR THE BULLET.

I hand seat the PP and then run it in a factory crimp die to hold the PP bullet in place.

again, this should not be hard...Ken

Michael Johnson
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Re: 4065 help

Post by Michael Johnson » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:43 am

It sounds to me that the main issue is the diameter of the paper patched bullet. It should slide into the bore with only slight resistance.
Mike Johnson
Hood Canal Hooligans B.P.C.R. Team

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lennies
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Re: 4065 help

Post by lennies » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:21 pm

Chris - the bullet is patched to bore diameter (.401 and the bore is .400 – the bullet is .395 bare). The bullet will slide into the bore with there is more than light resistance. Will try pushing it through with a rod.
Bob – the paper is from BACO and adds just over .005 to the bare bullet when wrapped properly. No case belling has been tried. The bullets slip fit into most cases without any expanding. I have had a few that needed the expander’s help and I then used the sizing die to put them back to 0.424. FWIW the expander brings the neck out to 0.428 and it will not chamber as expected.
Kenny, checking for chambering along the process is how I found that there is an issue. Perhaps I should see if the crimp/seating die makes the neck any smaller than the sizing die.
Michael – It may well be that there is a tapered or stepped bullet in my future. One cannot have enough bullet moulds it would seem on this forum anyway.


This brings to mind another question: Is it better to have a two diameter PP bullet made with a step or a taper?

PacRATT
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Re: 4065 help

Post by PacRATT » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 pm

Lennies, my daughter’s Shiloh, like Dave’s, is tight. It measures .431” at neck (Chamber cast) and case mouth with .400” wrapped bullet measures .425”. This is with Starline 40-65 brass.
My Kal-tool slicks measures .392” before wet wrapping to .400” and can be pushed form breech to muzzle with light pressure. I can just make out the rifling on the paper. I finger seat the bullet .200” over a .060” Veggy wad. I use 62 grs. of Old E.
This load gave me 8 out of 10 shots within a 2 ½” circle at 197Yds. All 10 within 3 1/4'”. Off the bench. Scoped.
My Ballard measures .436 at the neck and will not group the above load. I’m going to get Rick K. to cut me a two diameter mould. Maybe .392” and .400” at the base for .300”.

bobw
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Re: 4065 help

Post by bobw » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:15 am

Unfortunately for me my 40-70 2.1" BN doesn't have a nice tight chamber like your gun. I don't fl size my brass either. After I've reprimed my cases ,dropped my powder, inserted the wad and compressed it, inserted the lube wad and placed another card on top it I then stick the round in my press and squeeze the neck down with a 40 SW tungsten carbide sizer enough to hold the ppb. The VLD chamfer allows me to start the ppb in a neck that will hold it. I feel that in this case trying to squeeze the neck down after the bullet is seated was counter productive to good accuracy.
A friend of mine had a tight chambered 40-90 SBN built and his CH dies would not size virgin brass small enough to chamber, we went with the process above to fireform it and now no further problems.. bobw
bobw

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Re: 4065 help

Post by Kurt » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:29 am

lennies with those measurements you gave those cases should slide in. You might check the base measurements on the cast and cases to make sure they clear.

I just checked my last 100 cases I got from Starline before Christmas and the fired cases shot in my chamber measure 2.098" that won't give your chamber any problems. The beauty of the 7 degree Loomer tight necked funnel transition into the lead is you can use a .020" short case without any effect with accuracy without that 45 degree wall chambers used mostly now days.
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Re: 4065 help

Post by Gussy » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:01 am

My chambering problems stopped when I ground about 0.150 off of the bottom of the sizing die.

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lennies
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Re: 4065 help

Post by lennies » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:02 pm

When I ordered the rifle with this chamber, it was after reading Mr. Loomer's book. I like many of the possibilities it wlll allow like not having to work the brass between loadings. I also expected a sizable learning curve and am up to the task.
Gussy, I have considered just that remedy. I also considered sending my chamber cast to RCBS and asking for an appropriately ground sizing die. I feel I should work with what I have and get through the fire forming before making that jump.
Kurt - most of the cases do slide in, but I keep getting some that balk. And I haven't found the dimension that is giving me the problem. I thought it might be at the case head as it is difficult to measure due to taper. The chamber cast measures 0.505 at the head and the neck tapers from 0.428 to 0.430 where it hits the shoulder if one could call it that. (but my chamber cast is 4 weeks old and I know they change as they age)
When I first was case forming I started getting a nasty scratch down the side of the case and it turned out that my first sizing die had cracked. RCBS replaced it. Cases were scrapped as there was no fixing them. Next I think I'm home free and finding that I had better check each case for chambering before heading to the range. If a case will chamber without a bullet but won't with one, then I have to look for the source of interference. Obviously, something changed, what was it... I haven't had a chance to push a patched bullet through the bore, so maybe that will reveal something.
thanks again to all for your willingness to share what you know and what you think.

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lennies
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Re: 4065 help

Post by lennies » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:05 pm

Schuetzen Dave - PM sent
did I misspell that?

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Re: 4065 help

Post by Gussy » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 pm

If you find one that won't chamber, lube it and run it up the sizing die. Actually what I do is back the die off and run the press ram all the way up then screw the die down. Once it hits, lower the ram and screw the die down a couple turns, size and then check chambering. Repeat until you find the problem.

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lennies
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Re: 4065 help

Post by lennies » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:29 am

Well I tried to push a patched bullet through the bore. No go. Bullet with patch measures 0.401 to 0.402 on a few occasions. Three thicknesses of paper measures 0.005 on a 0.395 bullet. I know the math doesn't add up, but this is what the dial caliper reads. I'm currently looking for a thinner paper and maybe a push thru sizing die that will take off a thou or 2 (0.399)
On page 1 it was suggested to use a push thru sizer and now that I know the bullets won't push through the barrel it might be a something to look at more seriously.
There is definitely no loading of cartridges that have the bullet loaded out to a normal PP configuration. Bullet sticks in the bore. They must be loaded to a shorter COAL with this bullet (to get through the fireforming step). As soon as the paper hits the lands I get a stoppage. I even shortened the paper to get a little more depth. It helped. My wraps are now 7/8 tall instead of 1 1/8. Won't know about any leading until I get to the range again.

Gussy, I'll try adjusting the sizer and report back.

Kurt, cases are trimmed to 2.095 (and I've not seen any shortening in the ones that I have fireformed.) Maybe because of the tight chamber? I know there is a dimension somewhere that I missed.
lennie

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Re: 4065 help

Post by semtav » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:56 am

You are using the same paper I use. .0017. three thisckness are .0051, but you are putting 4 thicknesses on your bullet (.0068) so that should get you .4018

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