Baffled

[semtav]

I didn't want to clutter up the Postal thread with this.
shot another 800 yd "match" with my Shiloh 45-70
this is the gun and load that shot my best Long range score at a match a couple years ago, so I know the load is a good one.
37 grain BH 209, Paul Jones .454 Money bullet

target.jpg

Started out by taking 3 sighters (third was the one in white) and at that point the bullets were following my sight adjustments
I got Lazy and didn't want to drive back over and walk up to paint the target, so I just marked them and went for score.

At that point everything went south (literally)
my next shot hit at the bottom of the target, (7 O'clock)
so I moved my sight up one minute and shot again.
Just over the target at 12 O'clock. So I shot again. 12 O'clock at the top.
So I moved it down 1 minute and ... yea bottom of target at 5.
I gave up on the match and just thought I'd see what the rest of my bullets would do.
I put 4 more in that tiny little spot at 5 ( one actually missed the target and went under by an inch.)
then I moved it back up 1 minute and shot another at the top of the target and a couple more that went just over the target.
So I moved it back down 1 minute and shot the rest of the shells in the little group at 7.
I have no explanation for this.
And yes, I was just moving it one minute, not one Mark (5 minutes)
MVA mid range sight

Like I said on the other thread, if I had not just shot such a good score using blackhorn in the other gun, it probably would have gone in the toilet. but I cant believe this is about powder.

[SchuetzenDave]

Some times we have to guess what the causes may be:

- are they old bullets where the lube has dried up and no longer has good viscosity; might be breaking up in chunks instead of greasing the barrel
- are you using a lube that works well below freezing (Alberta Schuetzen Lube is excellent down to -40)
- do you have frozen fingers that prevent good trigger control
- are you using pistol primers when a hotter primer may be required to set BH 209 off more consistently at lower temperatures

Shooting below freezing over the years have indicated you can have lube and consistent powder ignition problems; as well as poorer rifle control as well as mirage affects.

But of coarse there are all sorts of problems that can affect accuracy like a broken firing pin, rubbing wood, moving your head to see the shot, etc.

[semtav]

They are old loads. Over a year old, but they are paper patched. I use fed match magnum primers.
Why are they shooting sub moa groups as long as I don't move the sight. And the sight is tight.
Maybe just a coincidence ??

[semtav]

Got to thinking, to further complcate things the Three sighters were bullets I had just cast. All but 2 of the rest were cast over a year ago. If they were scattering randomly I could maybe blame it on the bullet being old. DanT touched on this when using antimony . But there are 4 shots in that tiny group at the edge of the target at 5 o'clock that were shot in succession.

[BFD]

I never chase a single low shot. Why it was low is a bit of a guess, but I would wager an unstable bullet. It wasn't flying straight, so it catches more air and has more drag. You raise your sights, the next one flies straight and stable and so it goes over the top.

If it happens again (an unexpected low shot), shoot another before you crank and then crank only half of what you normally would. See what happens. I bet the second shot will be back in the group.

[SchuetzenDave]

Whenever the accuracy goes on my rifle I have learned to make sure the forearm wood is not rubbing on the receiver, to take my firing pin out and insure it has not broken, or to use work hardened cases instead of freshly annealed ones (due to less neck tension).

Yes old lube can affect us grease groove bullet users; however there are changes to the hardness of your alloy over time.

Lead:Tin alloy bullets will soften over 90 days.
Lead:Tin:Antimony alloy bullets will harden over 90 days.

I always shoot bullets that were cast six month prior (cast in early winter before shooting season) so their hardness has stabilized.
Many other shooters frequently only shoot freshly cast bullets to ensure the alloy has not aged.

Over the last year the accuracy using my MVA scope went down the tubes.
I checked the nut to minimize lash, ensured my scope blocks were tight, and the front windage adjustment screws were properly locked.
When I did my winter inspection of my equipment I noticed the slide rib was moving.
All four screws holding the rib onto the scope had vibrated out and only the stop ring was holding the rib onto the scope.
MVA kindly forwarded me new screws and I am pretty sure my Scope shooting will improve next year.

[semtav]

Brent
I understand what you are saying. And why I only went up 1 minute. But why after I gave up on shooting the match could I shoot +/- 1 moa 3-4 shot group at the bottom of the target, move the sight 1 minute up, shoot a +/- 1 moa group just over the top of the target, and then move it back down 1 minute and shoot a sub moa group at the bottom of the target ? That's 48". Should be at least 5-6 minutes adjustment.

I do know my front aperature was a lot bigger than the one I used in the 42, but that's still too consistent an error.

I've still got about 40 of the cases loaded with powder that I just need to put the bullets in, so hopefully I'll figure something out before I run out of them. Maybe it won't do it with new bullets. Or maybe they'll all just scatter.

[MikeT]

semtav,

You will feel better about it if you blame it on the wind gods. I see this happen at many long range matches.
One minute of elevation can put you in a whole different wind environment up there at 35 to 40 feet.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

[SFogler]

Move it half a minute?

[semtav]

I'm not that smart.
Might have to go find my helium bottle and balloons. I like Mike t's theory better

[Distant Thunder]

It's complicated to explain face to face and probably shouldn't be attempted on a forum so let's get started.

As mere humans we tend to see things in a very limited manner. This is how we see the wind unfortunately. The wind is not uniformly flowing all the same between the muzzle and the target. It is often, if not always, a woven 3 dimensional bunch of streams flowing over and around various visible and invisible objects.

At long range especially your bullet is arcing up through and then back down through several different sets of these streams of moving air. It can happen that your bullet will be arcing through a particular stream of wind but be right on the edge of it and even a half minute sighting change will cause that arc to pass into a DIFFERENT stream and be pushed by that stream to a different location several minutes from where it was on the previous shot. You go back to your initial setting and therefore back into the original stream and back to the original target location.

This is the same reason you can be hitting at 2 o'clock in the 8-ring, come down 1 1/2 minutes and left 1 1/2 minutes, shoot again and it will hit at 2 o'clock in the 8-ring. You make an adjustment again and hit at 2 o'clock in the 8-ring again. I have seen this repeated 3 or even 4 times and then, you guessed it, you all of a sudden hit in 8-ring at 7 o'clock! Nothing, nothing, nothing and then bloom, you get the entire adjustment at one time. It just takes a number of adjustment to cross the stream you started in and then one more and you slip into a totally different stream and a totally different location on the target. It's frustrating as hell, but we've all seen it.

It's like when you're on the interstate headed to Cabela's in Richfield, WI and in the middle of some big exchange and you move over just one lane and the next thing you know you're headed to Minnesota!

That is an extremely simplified look at a theory that I developed from an explanation that given to me many years ago by a shooter who had it figured out better than most.

In reality it probably just comes down to just a series of lucky and unlucky rolls of the dice.

[Kurt]

If your shooting the target at the Quigley range over that crick I had this happen to me at the MT 1000 on target #2 with the wind coming from the NE. I went over and under without a sight change.

[Buzzard II]

I used some old bullets with old lube ONCE. I re lubed the bullets with fresh lube and it shot better. Fresh cast bullets with fresh lube shot even better. Others may have different results, but this is what I experienced.

[semtav]

Duplicate

[semtav]

Well I couldn't stand it so I went and shot it at 200 yds.
bull was a little too little for the brown background on a dark overcast day and I
Haven't shot sitting off crosssticks in forever, so a lot of error was mine, but seemed to hold elevation fair once I got it there.

Thanks for the suggestions.
Will save the rest of the cartridges for another day and see what happens

45-70 test.jpg