Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

Moderators: Kirk, Lucinda

Trigger1212
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:08 am

Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by Trigger1212 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:55 pm

Gents,

Ready to order a mold for my soon to be built 40-65 Shiloh. Want to be sure I'm thinking about the mold dimensions correctly. I've cast pistol bullets for many years but this is my first foray into BPCR loading. With my pistol bullets I always tried to cast them .001' to .002" over groove diameter, and would open up my cylinder throats if necessary to do so.

Lucinda tells me, firmly, that my 40-65 barrel will be .400" bore and .408" groove. Question is do I want a mold cut to drop a .408" bullet or do you go slightly oversize, say .409" or .410" and then size down to .408".

Bottom line, not sure if I am supposed to order groove size and count on bump up upon firing to take care of any inconsistencies in size.

Feel like a silly nervous hen asking all these questions, but don't want to make a mistake and then be disappointed in the mold. Appreciate the clarification!

Oh yeah, for now will be just starting with a greaser, leaning away from a reduced band mold as then I would HAVE to pan lube. Maybe that thinking is a mistake as the pan lube doesn't look that hard to do. Just done like that it is the only option to lube the bullet.

Cheers!

Wade

beltfed
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:07 am
Location: Central Wi

Re: Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by beltfed » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:14 pm

I would not be afraid of pan lubing. Once set up, its fast and easy.
a tapered bullet works well in the 40-65.
What is the twist you have ordered.
Best would be the 14 to give you more lattitude in bullet length.

OTOH, I have been enjoying my 40-65 16 twist.
Was shooting my 370gr Elliptical profile/minigroove tapered bullet
at 1375fps. with accuracy out to 1K

I have now moved to my 372 gr DDEPP bullet ove 75 gr Swiss 1.5 for 1400fps.

NO more "greasy kid stuff"


beltfed/arnie

beltfed
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:07 am
Location: Central Wi

Re: Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by beltfed » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:30 pm

Sorry, my first response did not answer your diameter question.
My bullets are 0.410 to fit the fireformed case mouth /freebore diameter.
and the body in front is tapered to fit the leade angle FOR MY CHAMBER.
And the length of the 0.410 diameter is set to fit my freebore length/lead angle
and about 0.125" in the fireformed case mouth.

Before you order a mold, you should have an exact profile of your Shiloh 40-65
chamber. Neck diameter/freebore diameter/freebore length and leade angle
Then you can tailor your mold to all of that for best concentricity and close fit.


beltfed/arnie

Trigger1212
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:08 am

Re: Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by Trigger1212 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:33 pm

Arnie
1-14” twist. Your probably right on the pan line. One thought is that with the tapered bullet it allows more powder, but that also means more recoil, main attraction of 40-65 was mild recoil relative to the 45-70...

Also, what is your opinion on the mold diameter for a .408” groove barrel?

W

Trigger1212
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:08 am

Re: Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by Trigger1212 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:34 pm

Hah! Two ships passing in the night! :lol:

W

gunlaker
Posts: 2185
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:16 pm

Re: Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by gunlaker » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:28 am

I use .408" and .409" bullets in my Shiloh's. A .410" would not chamber, a 0.409" is a snug slip fit in a fired case.

Pan lubing is easy, and is all I do these days.

I recommend the Saeco #740 and the Buffalo Arms 409400M4 ( cast in 16:1 ) bullets. You can go a little longer/heavier on the Money bullet. I use it in my 1:14 twist rifle, but mainly because I had the mold for the 1:16 twist rifle, and of course, the fact that it shoots very well.

Chris.

bobw
Posts: 3060
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:52 pm

Re: Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by bobw » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:53 am

.392" 2 wraps 9 lb onionskin = .399". Nevermind " No more greasy kid stuff" don't start it in the first place. bobw
bobw

Clarence
Posts: 1963
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2002 7:38 pm
Location: Hill Country, TX

Re: Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by Clarence » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:43 am

I've used 0.408-0.4095" bullets in my Shiloh .40-65. With loads worked up for the bullet, all were very accurate.

Clarence

Trigger1212
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:08 am

Re: Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by Trigger1212 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:05 pm

Gents

I guess when you boil it right down to it the question is given the .400”- .408” Shiloh what would be the spec you would want your mold cut for. Greaser, widest Point not taking into consideration and reduced driving bands for extra powder capacity.

Arnie probably has the right idea with the chamber cast to get exact dimensions. BUT I’m sure there are a hell of a lot of shooters that don’t chamber cast, at most they slug the barrel. Must be some standard wisdom for 40-65 SHILOH barrels with a 7 Reg lead.

Thanks!

Wade

SchuetzenDave
Posts: 657
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:07 am
Location: St. Albert, Alberta

Re: Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by SchuetzenDave » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:33 pm

I have always shoot plain base cast bullets .001 or .002 wider than the groove-to-groove diameter of my barrel.

In my .40-65 I shoot a .410" driving band bullet in my .408" barrel and I size with a .410 H&I die only to remove flashings.

powderburnt
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:13 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by powderburnt » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:00 pm

I have a standard chamber in my 40-65 Shiloh (45 degree lead) and it likes the dual diameter bullet that is .408 base and .400 body. I don't think that will work well with the 7 degree lead but you are welcome to try. Like I said, I'll send you some already patched up when you get your rifle. It would behoove you to shoot greasers to get the feel of it and the sight settings for 200 then try the PP bullets for comparison. I'm guessing that a groove diameter PP bullet will probably work better with the slow lead. That long lead will allow you to set the bullet out more.

HG

User avatar
Lumpy Grits
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:58 pm
Location: The Mojave Desert...Palmdale, Ca. U.S.A. Earth

Re: Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by Lumpy Grits » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:20 pm

One of the first questions Paul Jones asked me when I ordered his mould was. What alloy will I use?
He said he needed to know this, so he could cut the mould correctly for the alloy.
I use 30:1 and his mould drops .4585 for my .45 cal Shiloh rifles.
I pan lube with DGL..
Gary
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"

User avatar
rfd
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 2:42 pm

Re: Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by rfd » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:54 pm

as already mentioned, all depends on what the barrel (chamber ream and rifling land/groove diameters) and alloy. when i was casting greasers for the .40-65win i dropped them at .409 with 1:20 alloy and DIP lubed 'em with gato feo.
BR ~ TMA ~ BPG

User avatar
rfd
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 2:42 pm

Re: Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by rfd » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:33 am

i will add with regards to the OP's comment about expecting the .40-65 to be "milder" with respect to the .45-70's recoil - t'aint so, from my perspective using similar weight rifles.

all these 19th century cartridges were designed for a relatively full case load of black powder and though, yes, the .40 will have some lesser amount of recoil as compared to a .45-70, it really ain't that much different at all, as i've personally experienced. greasers will have cartridge OAL issues that will typically restrict powder capacity, whereas bore rider PPB cartridges will allow a .45-70 to become a virtual .45-90, and yer .40-65 will hold upwards of 75 grains of 1-1/2f. for a "milder recoil" with any of these cartridges, resort to wad stacks and/or wad cookies, so that less powder can be used, along with lighter bullets. however, all of that capacity finagling may run counter productive for consistent accuracy in the long run (or short run, for that matter).

this thing about fired recoil with these 19th century cartridge guns can be quite over exaggerated in most, but surely not all, cases. i can see how easily it might lead to intimidation for a pilgrim to this BPCR/TR game, as it was for me and my already bum trigger finger shoulder. then again, this is why we have recoil absorbing butt stock add-ons and special strap-on shoulder pads that allow us to fire off full house .45 loads all day long at a match and have zero after effects.
BR ~ TMA ~ BPG

Clarence
Posts: 1963
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2002 7:38 pm
Location: Hill Country, TX

Re: Clarification needed on 40-65 mold diameter

Post by Clarence » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:04 am

RFD,

My shoulder disagrees with you. With normal loads (420 gr. GG for .40-65, 540 gr GG for .45-70, with normal loads of 1.5Fg), there is a significant, ~20% difference in recoil, and it is noticeable.

Clarence

Post Reply